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Post 05 Sep 2013, 3:38 pm

Danivon
Really? You can read the guy's mind? Maybe he's more worried about internal support folding
.

Be fair... I did say "may".
And its a reasonable supposition....
Just as reasonable to beleive that if the US congress vetos action, he'll decide he can use gas with impunity. (Unless the french act unilaterally)
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Post 05 Sep 2013, 4:21 pm

so shooting at our aircraft is no big deal since none got shot down? We simply ignore it UNTIL something happens? And the continual interference with the wmd inspectors, that was also ok since they found nothing (maybe partly due to the interference?) am I hearing you actually say "no harm no foul"? so attempted murder is no problem?
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Post 05 Sep 2013, 6:15 pm

tom
so shooting at our aircraft is no big deal since none got shot down? We simply ignore it UNTIL something happens


If you check the history, or just read wha Fate quoted, you'll note that the allies didn't ignore the Iraquis provocations. They shot down air craft and destroyed missile defence sites...
Although there was a risk that the Iraquis could have gotten lucky ....in reality they never had success. So, yeah, it really wasn't a big deal. At least not a big enough deal to invade and occupy the country over....

tom
And the continual interference with the wmd inspectors, that was also ok since they found nothing (maybe partly due to the interference?)

Completely due to there not being any.....
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Post 05 Sep 2013, 6:19 pm

One difference between Iraq and Syria is that going into the Iraq war, the U.S. had some optimism that democracy would take route as it had in Eastern Europe when the tyrants were gone. However, over the last 10 years we've lost any optimism that democracy is a likely outcome for these countries.
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Post 05 Sep 2013, 6:37 pm

rickyp wrote:tom
so shooting at our aircraft is no big deal since none got shot down? We simply ignore it UNTIL something happens


If you check the history, or just read wha Fate quoted, you'll note that the allies didn't ignore the Iraquis provocations. They shot down air craft and destroyed missile defence sites...
Although there was a risk that the Iraquis could have gotten lucky ....in reality they never had success. So, yeah, it really wasn't a big deal. At least not a big enough deal to invade and occupy the country over....

tom
And the continual interference with the wmd inspectors, that was also ok since they found nothing (maybe partly due to the interference?)

Completely due to there not being any.....

Um, did it occur to you to admit you botched the whole no-fly zone thing?

The Iraqis were violating it by shooting at allied aircraft. That's a violation of the ceasefire and this a cause for a resumption of hostilities.
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Post 05 Sep 2013, 11:04 pm

I've stated my position on this insanity once before and I'll state it again. We sit this one out. Period. Furthermore, we let France take the lead on this.

Speaking of whom, is anyone out there curious as to why France has taken such an interest in Syria? Is it so much that there are French nationals living in Syria or that France is responding to its Muslim constituents in the south who demand that something be done to protect those they empathize with? I'm surprised no one in the media has picked up on the influence of Islam in French politics as of yet.

Anyway, I find myself waiting to hear about a Senator out there who has nerve enough to stand up to the insanity of all this war talk and call for calm. You know, a politician who is willing to risk his political career by taking a contrarian stance against all this bravado and hype. Someone like, wait a minute.....Obama. Oh the irony of politics and the irony of that man.

Obama has lost his way I'm afraid. He has lost his mind and has lost his way. At least Pope Francis has the balls to call a spade a spade.

And can someone tell me what is the big damn hurry for intervention? I don't get it. Why the rush to punish? What is the harm in biding our time and taking things slow? Isn't it possible that in time a solution may present itself?

I can not believe any of this crazy talk. A strike will solve nothing, add to the complexity, create ample opportunity for more suffering, more hatred, entangle us in yet another mindless effort costing us millions or even billions that we can not afford.

What ever will these political stooges do as the voice of the American people say NO to this which seems to be what is happening?

In light of what is rapidly becoming Islamist France, let the French appease their constituents. Let them take the lead. Let them pay for the intervention no matter what it eventually looks like.

We can take alternative measures to assist with the 2 million refugees inside Turkey and elsewhere. At least that would be a positive step forward.

I'll be damned if I sit back and let this happen all over again. I am so on the phone tomorrow morning with my Senators and Congressmen.

All of you people are nuts. I'm with Francis! http://news.yahoo.com/military-solution-syria-futile-pope-tells-g20-133932802.html;_ylt=A2KJjb1vailSlhMA9yDQtDMD
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 12:43 am

Doctor Fate wrote:

No, no direct reference to Benghazi. As you often say, don't try to read my mind.
Hence the question, not assertion used.

What we have in Libya is a mess. I have nothing against Zeidan. I'm not the one who called him a liar on national TV.
So who did? And over what?
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 4:52 am

There's some buzz that Obama will not get the votes in the House. He need 218. https://plus.google.com/106724181552911 ... xmjXRku9Ys

Dag:
or that France is responding to its Muslim constituents in the south who demand that something be done to protect those they empathize with? I'm surprised no one in the media has picked up on the influence of Islam in French politics as of yet.

You make it sound like a crime to empathize with people and to listen to your constituents. That's the linchpin of civilization and the linchpin of Democracy, respectively.
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 5:31 am

I think Dag is way off beam with the "rapidly becoming Islamist" thing, too. Given this is a country that recently banned the public wearing of a niqab or burka it sounds doolally.

In case Dag is unaware, France has historical connections with Syria - it occupied Lebanon and Syria from WWI up to decolonisation. However, there are few Syrians in France and fewer still French citizens in Syria.

The Arab populations in France would tend to be from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia.

I think this is less about domestic opinion in France (polls suggest people are opposed to military action there too) and more about assertion of moral leadership.
Last edited by danivon on 06 Sep 2013, 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 5:34 am

But to listen to the Muslim constituents?
...How dare they, if they aint Christian, they aint people!? Right Dag?
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 5:49 am

danivon wrote:
What we have in Libya is a mess. I have nothing against Zeidan. I'm not the one who called him a liar on national TV.
So who did? And over what?


My mistake. Wrong leader of Libya. Zeidan is the Prime Minister. Susan Rice implied the President of Libya didn't know what he was talking about, when she lied/repeated a lie she believed on ABC.

Rice’s account directly contradicts that of Libyan President Mohamed Yousef El-Magariaf, who said this weekend that he had “no doubt” the attack was pre-planned by individuals from outside Libya.
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 6:04 am

Dag
Speaking of whom, is anyone out there curious as to why France has taken such an interest in Syria?

History.
In line with the Sykes-Picot agreement, Syria became a League of Nations mandate under French control in 1920.

Fate
The Iraqis were violating it by shooting at allied aircraft. That's a violation of the ceasefire and this a cause for a resumption of hostilities


The US and British had a choice. Continue with the very effective enforcement of the no fly zone. Or use these ineffective "violations" as a reason to invade and occupy.
In retrospect .... the low cost in operating the no fly zone (money and casualtie - which were zero) versus the disastrous cost of the occupation, any sane person would choose the continuation of the no fly zone.
But, you're right, rather than choose the conservative approach, Bush decided to narrowly interpret the previously ignored transgressions (ignored as provications for war, but not ignored practically as evidenced by the damage done to the Iraquis...) as a reason to invade... Didn't have to did he?
The change from the conservative response to transgressions to "we need to invade" was entirely unjustified. If the strategy was suceeeding in the goals, with few costs .... the suden switch to use the transgressions to justify war was trumped up...
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 7:36 am

rickyp wrote:Fate
The Iraqis were violating it by shooting at allied aircraft. That's a violation of the ceasefire and this a cause for a resumption of hostilities


The US and British had a choice. Continue with the very effective enforcement of the no fly zone. Or use these ineffective "violations" as a reason to invade and occupy.
In retrospect .... the low cost in operating the no fly zone (money and casualtie - which were zero) versus the disastrous cost of the occupation, any sane person would choose the continuation of the no fly zone.
But, you're right, rather than choose the conservative approach, Bush decided to narrowly interpret the previously ignored transgressions (ignored as provications for war, but not ignored practically as evidenced by the damage done to the Iraquis...) as a reason to invade... Didn't have to did he?
The change from the conservative response to transgressions to "we need to invade" was entirely unjustified. If the strategy was suceeeding in the goals, with few costs .... the suden switch to use the transgressions to justify war was trumped up...


Brilliant analysis. This explains why Bush had a good number of allies contribute troops for an actual invasion and Obama can't get anyone to do anything. I suppose the French are willing to cheer.

Bush was not the only one to "narrowly interpret the previously ignored transgressions (ignored as provications (sic) for war, but not ignored practically as evidenced by the damage done to the Iraquis (sic)...) as a reason to invade... "

A country always has a choice to make with regard to war. The US could have ignored Pearl Harbor. The North could have ignored Fort Sumter. The British could have ignored Lexington and Concord. They also could have ignored the invasion of Poland.

War is always a choice.

You are completely daft. Then again, we've come to expect this. I was against the resumption of hostilities against Iraq, but . . .

1. No one can just ignore someone constantly shooting at them. Sooner or later, one of those rounds will kill someone.

2. No intelligence agency--not in the West, not Israel and not even Russia, believed Saddam had destroyed his WMD. The worldwide presumption was that he still had them.

3. There were many (17?) UN resolutions. Saddam had many chances to fully come clean with the UN inspectors. Instead, he played games.

But, this isn't about Iraq. There were many justifications to go to war (again) there. There really is only one in Syria. I can't see a reason to dip our toe in the water, so to speak.
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 7:55 am

The responses to my post have only solidified my position all the more, let France lead. My concern over the influence of Islam in French politics stems from the fact that we are about to get in bed with some very strange bedfellows. The question has already been raised about exactly who will we be assisting if our involvement increases? What rebel group will benefit? Several of the rebel fighters are our enemies. Why do i want to do anything to assist a sworn enemy? i read last night that there is much talk inside Iraq that if we get involved we can rest assured that Iraqi militants will pour over the border to assist Assad. This conflict gets more complex by the day. The fact is this is an Islamic crisis. Let an Islamic country such as France lead. There's no harm in that.
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Post 06 Sep 2013, 7:59 am

When you look at all the events, Assad has been trying his hardest to avoid drawing any other nations into this conflict. And why would he want anyone else involved? He's been given modern weapons and supplies by the Russians and has recently been making progress, and left with the status quo and former Russian promises to supply Syria with "weapons that have never been seen before in the Middle East", the LAST thing Assad would want to do is use chemical weapons for a paltry victory. He knows that Obama issued his "Red Line" statement, and the last thing he'd want is US involvement.

As Danivon has graciously pointed out, there is no public proof that Assad was the one using the sarin gas. There simply isn't any actual tie between Assad and the use of these weapons, whereas back in May UN investigators had "strong, concrete suspicions" that the rebels had actually used chemical weapons, albeit quite ineffectively ( I believe the death tally was in the 10s or 20s?). Wouldn't it make more sense for the Rebels to frame Assad to draw in international support for their cause?

Or, maybe the rebels were given chemical weapons that they weren't properly qualified to use and accidentally set them off prematurely:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

“We were very curious about these arms. And unfortunately, some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions,”


And this isn't some "Russian" source. They're based in Minneapolis. As in, the one in the USA. Although what's most alarming about this report isn't the fact that rebels have been claiming responsibility for the "attack" (if accidental) and no one seems to know this, but that interviewers have been warned not to question people too much over who caused the chemical attack. Censorship is happening here, and despite this article existing for over a week, strangely no one seems to have heard about this. I keep reading in the papers Western politicians claiming that there isn't any doubt that Assad did it, that we have to punish Assad for doing it, that we can't let Assad get away with doing it, and yet there hasn't been a single article suggesting any sort of proof that Assad did it.

Should the US launch an attack? Regardless of the answer, we have to acknowledge that if they do then they certainly won't be doing so to punish Assad for a chemical attack that hasn't been tied to him except through sources that (quite conveniently!) can't be revealed.

I'm from Canada and have been repeatedly reading and hearing my Member of Parliament (who happens to be Minister of Foreign Affairs) repeat his support for whatever the US does. Naturally, Canada has no drones or long-range missiles. So we don't have any military contribution to make and thus no troubling decision. And we can't not MORALLY support the USA, so that's already settled. Canadian funds have instead been going to providing rebels with communication devices like radio equipment and information storage devices to record any evidence of human rights violations. It sounds very unexciting, but really what everyone needs is more sources of information from the region.

I've read comparions to Hitler (!) here, but really all Assad has in common is that he is without any sort of argument a dictator. And it is incredibly unfortunate that despite his liberalization program he hadn't been willing to yield government control, and stood by his policy of banning any sort of official opposition. But we know that Assad is a rational man who managed to keep the country free of sectarian violence while gradually releasing restrictions. If you look at pre-war Syria you'll see that under Assad Syria was actually flourishing in the 2000s, with high economic growth, a developing credit system (with bank machines making their first appearance towards the end), over 90% access to markets and primary schools, even in poor rural areas, and an increasingly large program of "Village Funds" to develop the poor rural regions that actually demanded equality of the sexes so that nearly 45% of shareholders in these funds were actually women. The socialized hospital systems were a bit of a joke due to the truly qualified doctors leaving for more lucrative jobs in other countries, but urban areas had 95% access and even in poor rural areas it was above 65%.

Assad was a dictator who refused and continues to refuse to give up control of his country, but comparing him to Hitler or calling him evil is giving in to baseless propaganda without actually looking into the data. Assad is fighting to reestablish control of the country, because if Assad is deposed, there is the very real probability of the successor government actually persecuting minorities. Assad punished any sort of dissent, but otherwise his government was incredibly tolerant. That sounds like a big "but", although this really is a matter of choosing the best of several questionable options. Having visited Syria twice, family that lived there for 2 years, and done my final economics paper on the country since the 90s, I'm quite certain that Assad is the best option Syria (and the rest of the world) has here.