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Post 11 May 2012, 10:12 am

freeman2 wrote:So Romney apologized for stuff he didn't do? That's hiilarious, Steve!


Freeman, with all due respect, do you know what you are blathering about?

Since you clearly don't, let's put you to the test:

1. Who were the eyewitnesses to this event?

2. Did Romney acknowledge this particular event or did he say he did some dumb stuff in high school?

3. As a political matter, should Romney fight over an allegation that cannot be proved or disproved, or should he simply acknowledge doing high school-type stuff during high school and move on?

4. Since you find it so disheartening that Romney was accused of these things by people who don't recall being there, what would you think of Obama's dope use, hanging out with troublemakers, looking to associate with radical students in college, etc.? Is there a difference? Were Obama's transgressions of a lesser category?

5. Did George Washington bully kids in school? Was FDR a prankster in junior high?

That anyone would put any stock in this is more telling of your desperation than anything else.
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Post 11 May 2012, 10:19 am

freeman2 wrote:By the way, Steve, your sources do not say they doubt that these incidents really happened--only you say that.


Um, skimming were you?

While the Post reports White as having “long been bothered” by the haircutting incident,” he told ABC News he was not present for the prank, in which Romney is said to have forcefully cut a student’s long hair and was not aware of it until this year when he was contacted by the Washington Post.


Not aware is different from doubt--okay, it's even less than doubt.

The witnesses were mostly Democrats who have never said anything about it until now. That's not curious to you? Aren't you a lawyer? Don't courts generally look for "facts?" Where are the facts in this case? You're convicting Romney on the basis of a now-doctored Wa-Po piece? One of their star witnesses says he wasn't even there! The guy said he "heard about it several weeks ago." So, an incident allegedly occurred 47 years ago, a guy hears about it a few weeks ago, and the WaPo cites him as a witness?

I guess you can believe what you want to believe.
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Post 11 May 2012, 10:40 am

freeman2 wrote:. And he was 18 years old, not like he was a child when this happened .

Dude, I am nowhere near the same person I was at 18. Honestly, this is a bullshit story and the fact that you give it any sort of attention shows that you are just as bad as those who berate Obama over things like being an alleged Muslim.

freeman2 wrote:. however, publicly humiliating other students that are perceived to be guy, I don' think that should be ignored.


I understand this one even less. Kids are mean. It's called lack of maturity. Holding a grudge against a guy from something he did 40 years ago is silly. And I am speaking as a guy who got bullied almost everyday of his school career because he was younger, smaller, gawky and dorkier then everybody else. Am I really supposed to hold a grudge against the adults who, as kids, threw rocks at me 26 years ago? That would be really immature and rather petty. I mean really, grow up.
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Post 11 May 2012, 1:33 pm

archduke
Dude, I am nowhere near the same person I was at 18. Honestly, this is a bullshit story and the fact that you give it any sort of attention shows that you are just as bad as those who berate Obama over things like being an alleged Muslim.


And George Washington as an adult was very different from the child who chopped down the cherry tree and couldn't lie about it... And yet that myth was vital to communicating to the American public something elemental about their founder's character.... This informs people too. Not so much by the facts of the event, but by the way he's reacted.

Mitts response to this has been whats really wrong. I don't think anyone can beleive that its possible to forget gang tackling a person and forcibly shearing their locks.. And yet to say, after denying recall, "but I'm certain I didn't think the guy was gay..."
This is the biggest clue to his character... .
There's instances in the debates like this where Mitt would deny having control over the negative ads his PACs were putting out and claim to have never seen them. Then quote from them or refer to them, a minute or two later.... (Thank you Daily Show)
.
His answer to the bullying story sould have been, "Yeah, I was a jerk when I was younger. Finding my wife made me a better man,. I regret this and several other terrible things I did. I regret never having apologized to .... "
Instead, he tries to worm his way out of it. To try and retain some fraction of deniability . He's just a miserable liar.

And by the way, there's no comparison between this and the stories about Obama being a Muslim. Thats just lieing. And worse. As Colin Powell said
"In the United States, It should not matter that he is a Muslim."
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Post 11 May 2012, 1:51 pm

rickyp wrote:Mitts response to this has been whats really wrong. I don't think anyone can beleive that its possible to forget gang tackling a person and forcibly shearing their locks.. And yet to say, after denying recall, "but I'm certain I didn't think the guy was gay..."
This is the biggest clue to his character... .


No, actually, it's the biggest clue to your gullibility. I already pointed out some inconsistencies in the WaPo piece, but that apparently doesn't bother you.

What if the WaPo piece is wrong? What if Romney to make the thing go away so he could talk about things that actually matter, gave a generic apology? If you think that's a stretch, think again:

The WaPo article focuses on the alleged John Lauber haircutting incident, including quotes from Romney childhood friend Phillip Maxwell: “’It was a hack job,’ recalled Maxwell, a childhood friend of Romney who was in the dorm room when the incident occurred. ‘It was vicious.’”
Apparently not so vicious, however, for Maxwell to relate the incident for the Auto Mag article. Auto Mag does, however, quote Maxwell giving crucial details notably missing from the Post piece: “’I'm a Democrat, so I won't vote for him,’ says Maxwell. 'But he'd probably make a pretty good President. He's very smart, very principled.’”
The Post neglected to mention these relevant facts, just as it neglected to mention Maxwell’s skepticism about Romney’s religion as reported in the Auto Mag piece: “‘He’s determined to claim the highest office in the land--to be the first Mormon to do it. He keeps that undercover because he doesn’t want to frighten people.’”
The Post also creates inferences about Romney that seem to be debunked in the Auto Mag article. Horowitz quotes Matthew Friedemann, the most vocally harsh critic on the Lauber haircutting, in a manner inferring that Romney was a snobbish kid who owned his own car: “When Romney left the campus on weekends, he never invited him. ‘I didn’t quite fit into the social circle. I didn’t have a car when I was 16,’ Friedemann said.”
Well, neither did Romney, according to his friend Gregg Dearth in the Auto Mag article: “’Mitt didn’t get a car at sixteen--ike many Cranbrook kids did.”’ And Romney did invite classmates home on weekends, according to Maxwell--a fact once again nowhere to be found in the Post article.


More:

After nearly 50 years, Stu White only heard of the Lauber incident a few weeks before the Post contacted him for his impressions of it. Yet “investigative journalist” Jason Horowitz does not ask the basic journalistic question of “who” told Stu White of the incident--and “why” suddenly now, after 50 years. Does WaPo just dismiss this as miraculous coincidence?
Isn’t that perhaps the most crucial element to the Post story--the question of why Obama’s epic same-sex marriage announcement seemed to have been timed so precisely with someone tipping off Stu White after 50 years, and with the Post's publication of its gay-bullying hit piece on Romney? White's anonymous informant and the Post's piece seem hardly coincidental.
To summarize: two current articles based on interviews with some of the same former classmates. But they present two differing and largely inconsistent portraits, with Horowitz's Washington Post either failing to investigate, or deliberately omitting, crucial and relevant information revealed by Murray in Automobile Magazine about Romney's character in high school. It would seem that the Post’s investigative journalism standards leave much to be desired.


[url]http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1206_mitt_romney/?ti=v2Original Auto mag piece here.[/url]

I've already seen some lefty blogs dismiss this as a "puff piece." Well, put the puff piece and the hit piece (WaPo) together and it sort of makes sense, I think. The WaPo edited out the things that made Romney seem less sinister, embellished those that helped damage him, failed to name sources, got facts wrong--and yet, you believe that one without any reservation.

Hmm, it's almost like . . . you're biased or something.
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Post 11 May 2012, 2:32 pm

I knew a few guys in university who have subsequently run for Parliament. In fact there's one girl who I once shared a hotel room with after a very boozy night out who's now a Tory MP. Nothing happened on that occasion, more's the pity, but I'm sure I could recount plenty of stuff that did happen which would be politically embarrasing for her now. Who cares ? We were young people in our late teens/early 20s having fun. People shouldn't be judged by the stuff they get up to when they're young, even politicians.

I wouldn't dream of voting for somebody who'd never done something when they were 18 that they subsequently had cause to regret.
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Post 11 May 2012, 2:33 pm

steve
I already pointed out some inconsistencies in the WaPo piece, but that apparently doesn't bother you.


There was one inconsistency. Which was corrected. But the point you fail to acknowledge

Four of the five witnesses to the forcible haircut cited by the Post are on the record, by name, and remember they it well. Their accounts remain unchallenged. I also think it’s important to point out that Romney quickly apologized after the story was published, and although not a detailed apology, I think his demeanor in the apology seemed genuine
.

Are going to cling to the theory that this was some enormous conspiracy cobbled together by the witnesses?
Read this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/omb ... ml?hpid=z2
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Post 11 May 2012, 2:35 pm

Sass, you're right. But usually when people of character are faced with the faIlures of their youth they honerable own up to it, and offer an apology. And its forgotten and forgiven.
Which was the lesson of george Washington by the way....

Its Mitts reaction today that is revealing about his character today.
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Post 11 May 2012, 2:47 pm

Maybe, but let's not read too much into it. For some reason most politicians are very reluctant to admit to errors in their past, even if it's in the dim and distant past and couldn't possibly be held against them by reasonable folk. Bill Clinton claimed not to have inhaled, which anybody who's ever smoked marijuana knew to be bullshit. Was that a savage indictment of his character ? I don't think so.
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Post 11 May 2012, 3:23 pm

Bill Clinton claimed not to have inhaled, which anybody who's ever smoked marijuana knew to be bullshit. Was that a savage indictment of his character ? I don't think so.


Yeah, but some people do...and it foreshadowed some really crumby behaviour.

But do Presidents, PMs and other political leaders need to be paragons of virtue ? I don't think so., And like you I don't think most reasonable people do. However there aren't as many reasonable people residing in the US as there used to be.. .In the hyper partisan political environment of the USA today it seems that politicians don't have the courage to deal with truth, including their own frailties.
Remember the mewling responses from some republicans when asked if they thought Obama was a Muslim?
Instead of having the courage to simply say no.... they pander to the ridiculous notions of the extreme in their party.
In much the same way, opponents of Obama point to his drug use. (Honestly depicted in his own book.) as some smirch on his character.... And now Mitt has given his opponents the opportunity to snipe at his character over this. And looked worse because of it...
I think Mitt missed a real opportunity to talk about how his marriage made him an upstanding individual who is today embarressed by some of his youthful behaviours... And I think that would be an honest depiction of the man today.
The fact he missed this opportunity to use the truth tells me he isn't ready to be President.
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Post 11 May 2012, 4:02 pm

I was going to reply to Steve but Ricky P pretty much nailed that softball that Steve threw out of the park...

Good to be reminded about whether Clinton inhaled or not, because that did give some insight into his character. Not a big deal but you get some insight into his character. And before you give Romney a total pass because he was 18 (we send kids who commit crimes when they are 16 to long prison sentences sometimes--they are not given much slack because they are young and immature but whatever) ask yourself if you did something similar when you were that age. And, as Ricky pointed out, it goes to Romney's credibility that he cannot remember things one would expect he would remember.
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Post 11 May 2012, 4:08 pm

rickyp wrote:And George Washington as an adult was very different from the child who chopped down the cherry tree and couldn't lie about it...


Wow, really. You want to use that story.

It has about as much truth as this stupid puff piece has. I mean jesus christ ricky. You are better then talking about this crap.

And I think it is totally believable that he could forget about it. I once had a couple of people stick chewed candy in my hair. I had to cut my hair to get it out. When I mentioned it them just 10 year later, they have no memory of it.

It is very easy for people to forget actions they do not want to remember.
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Post 11 May 2012, 8:19 pm

Well, Archduke did those people who put candy in your hair "say, well, I don't remember it happening but if it did happen I apologize."

What age exactly do we have a cut-off for information about a politician's actions? To me, everything is relevant to some degree. Who the heck knows what kind of person Romney really is? You're trying to search for clues as to what makes this man tick. This is the guy who doesn't seem to care about people beyond his inner circles (family, Mormon church) all that much. Obviously, I don't like Romney at all. But let me flip the story around a bit. Let's say instead of persecuting gays Romney befriended the only black student in his high school, made them feel welcome. If that were the story I would absolutely have to step back and reevaluate what I think about him. However, this story seems perfectly in line with his behavior at Bain where he came in and fired workers without a second thought. You think the gay community thinks these incidents are not relevant? Yeah most incidents when you're young are not relevant, some things just are.

And, Archduke, it's not like your vitriol sounds all that grown-up. About the only conservative here a person can have a civil discussion with is Brad.
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Post 11 May 2012, 8:38 pm

rickyp wrote:steve
I already pointed out some inconsistencies in the WaPo piece, but that apparently doesn't bother you.


There was one inconsistency. Which was corrected. But the point you fail to acknowledge

Four of the five witnesses to the forcible haircut cited by the Post are on the record, by name, and remember they it well. Their accounts remain unchallenged. I also think it’s important to point out that Romney quickly apologized after the story was published, and although not a detailed apology, I think his demeanor in the apology seemed genuine
.

Are going to cling to the theory that this was some enormous conspiracy cobbled together by the witnesses?
Read this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/omb ... ml?hpid=z2


How many are Democrats with an ax to grind?

The longer this story is out there, the more desperate it seems--and not for Romney.

Let's see where this all sits in a week.

freeman2 wrote:And, Archduke, it's not like your vitriol sounds all that grown-up. About the only conservative here a person can have a civil discussion with is Brad.


Sadly, you liberals are about as civil as Chairman Mao. Quote me on it.

You suffered through BDS, PDS, and now it's either RDS or Obama Sycophancy Syndrome.
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Post 11 May 2012, 9:15 pm

freeman2 wrote: To me, everything is relevant to some degree. Who the heck knows what kind of person Romney really is? You're trying to search for clues as to what makes this man tick. This is the guy who doesn't seem to care about people beyond his inner circles (family, Mormon church) all that much. Obviously, I don't like Romney at all. But let me flip the story around a bit. Let's say instead of persecuting gays Romney befriended the only black student in his high school, made them feel welcome. If that were the story I would absolutely have to step back and reevaluate what I think about him.



He can't be all bad

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ped-locat/