freeman3 wrote:Given all of the questionable incidents involving the killing of young black men the past few years, what happened in Baltimore seemed inevitable to occur. There are economic and racial fissures in American society that are not being addressed. And we have police in many areas across the country who appear to be adopting more aggressive policies. There are seemingly almost always justifications for police misbehavior (even though good cops would never do what these bad/incompetent/racist cops do). I can tell you that the LAPD is a much better police force than it was prior to the 1992 riots where much of the force was white and lived in white suburbs. Police forces have to be composed primarily of people from the community and have to be answerable to the community. I don't think the changes in the LAPD would have happened but for the riots. Those riots were very scary to live through but positive change did occur as a result .

I don't agree re LAPD, but setting that aside, what does that paragraph have to do with the situation in Baltimore?

We have a society where a small amount of input of work/ contribution to society can be rewarded to a few who can make withdrawals of unlimited wealth from the society while many are struggling to get by. I don't see that our system passes any kind of system of ethical /moral/religious values. We can establish policies (tax and otherwise) that reward people handsomely without allowing for astronomical rewards for doing little work.

Families pass on ethical/moral values. When the families fail, we get gangs.

Those gangsters in Baltimore--are they hard at work?

This whole Clinton thing is typical. Yay , cut taxes, cut the power of unions, let American companies go overseas for cheap labor so a few can make lots of money doing little while most Americans' incomes are stagnating . Make lots of money for doing really nothing. Meanwhile, we are doing little to ensure decent economic opportunities for cities like Baltimore, have the police incarcerate them at a high rate and then call them thugs when the unfairness becomes too much to take and they lash out. The social contract is fraying in some/many areas of the country and Baltimore may be just the tip of the iceberg unless we start making changes.

Maryland is dominated by Democrats--although they have a newly-elected GOP governor. Baltimore has been dominated by Democrats for decades. They've got liberal policies, a black mayor, a PD that has more black cops than white cops . . . yet you say they're racist. Please explain.

I can't argue with that. This is not Missouri. And Maryland of 2015 is not Maryland of 1968, Ricky. I'm rather surprised that, to prove your point about the present situation, you quote a source quoting a report from 1968. That's a little...out of date.

As to the criminal incarceration, Are you advocating not locking people up for crimes?

As to the "privacy question"; You were asked a question about what you thought about a camera having surveillance all the time on an officer. I asked because I wanted to know YOUR opinion.

Yes, I do want body cameras on officers to make sure that a suspect gets EVERY crime that they commit punished. You spit on an officer... That is assault, and now you would have indisputable evidence of that that would result in prison. You beat a handcuffed suspect, the camera films it and you have the indisputable evidence of assault, and the policeman goes to prison.

I am fine with either case.

Our economic policies have been national in scope--not sure why you (DF)think a local mayor can do something about that. And the anger in Baltimore did not come from gangsters-- it came primarily from ordinary black folks or else this would happen all of the time.

As far as your statement that families pass on morals/ethical values, that essentially those who fail economically have bad values, that is a view shared by many white Americans who seem unconscious of the status and opportunities their race gives them.

And as to Freeman's statement(s), Baltimore is not Los Angeles.

As far as your statement that families pass on morals/ethical values, that essentially those who fail economically have bad values, that is a view shared by many white Americans who seem unconscious of the status and opportunities their race gives them.

I've often had little patience for the view that being lower-middle class, or in the lowest "fifth" of the tax structure, is an excuse for crime.

Personally I think (I'm not saying you said this) that the view that it's OK for people to commit crimes because of their race is the ultimate racist statement.

For now things seem to have calmed down. So the answer to my question would be no. Then again there are 1,500 NG troops on the streets so that could be why.

We'll see what happens after 10 tonight...or in the early hours of the night/morning.

Deleted

JimHackerMP wrote:For now things seem to have calmed down. So the answer to my question would be no. Then again there are 1,500 NG troops on the streets so that could be why.

We'll see what happens after 10 tonight...or in the early hours of the night/morning.

Looks like they acted swiftly, decisively, and took care of business.

freeman3 wrote:Our economic policies have been national in scope--not sure why you (DF)think a local mayor can do something about that.

Well then, why have a mayor?

Furthermore, trillions have been spent in the war on poverty and ???

Lastly, under this President, the economic plight of blacks has worsened.

And the anger in Baltimore did not come from gangsters-- it came primarily from ordinary black folks or else this would happen all of the time.

The violence and looting did come from gangsters. They took advantage of the situation to overwhelm the distracted (and poorly led) police.

As far as your statement that families pass on morals/ethical values, that essentially those who fail economically have bad values, that is a view shared by many white Americans who seem unconscious of the status and opportunities their race gives them.

That's a pretty crappy read of what I said. In fact, it's nothing like it.

I'm saying only the family can do that. The government CANNOT pass on morals/ethical values.

I said NOTHING about "those who fail economically have bad values." I recognize that statement is wrong.

And, I reject "white privilege." Nothing in my life has been granted to me because I'm white. In fact, my whiteness has denied me many things.

hacker

I've often had little patience for the view that being lower-middle class, or in the lowest "fifth" of the tax structure, is an excuse for crime.
Personally I think (I'm not saying you said this) that the view that it's OK for people to commit crimes because of their race is the ultimate racist statement

Who is arguing that criminal behavior is excusable? It is understandable...
How much media coverage did six days of peaceful protest in Baltimore get before the riots? Very little.
And how much has actually been done to reform policing methods in the last few years as more and more black men have died in encounters? Has anything really changed? Apparently in Baltimore they think not.
I have argued that some of the criminal laws are counter productive and just stupid. The war on drugs was largely fought in black neighborhoods, despite the use of drugs being the same in black versu white commuunities.

7. The war on drugs has been waged primarily in communities of color where people of color are more likely to receive higher offenses. According to the Human Rights Watch, people of color are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs than whites, but they have higher rate of arrests. African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses. From 1980 to 2007 about one in three of the 25.4 million adults arrested for drugs was African American.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... ed-states/

But when you say that Baltimore in 68 is different than today you ignore a few facts ... Like people who want to claim that now that the US has a black President its "post racial".
The same fundamental statements could be said today and in 68

Whites who committed crimes are not treated the same way by the justice system as blacks.
Blacks are not treated the same way in encounters with police than whites.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3789858002

In 68 the effects of the GI Bill had help create a white middle class. Black families that had men serve in WWII had been shut out of GI Bill. (The effects of that systemic discrimination are still felt.) The draft was sending far greater percentage of black men to Viet Nam then white . And Martin Luther King had just been assassinated.
Today far more black men end up in jail after being apprehended for a crime. There is still vast inequality in school funding and in economic opportunity. The war on drugs has been lost, with black families paying the most for the loss, and tax payers footing the bill for needless incarcerations that weigh down society.
So much time passes and so little changes. Except that those who rise up in protest are largely ignored until they get violent. Then they are blamed.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ion.2.html

rickyp wrote:hacker

I've often had little patience for the view that being lower-middle class, or in the lowest "fifth" of the tax structure, is an excuse for crime.
Personally I think (I'm not saying you said this) that the view that it's OK for people to commit crimes because of their race is the ultimate racist statement

Who is arguing that criminal behavior is excusable? It is understandable...

No, no it's not. Please help me understand how it is okay to hurt innocent people by looting and burning down their businesses? By stopping them from going to work?

How much media coverage did six days of peaceful protest in Baltimore get before the riots? Very little.

Yes, I'm sure you were glued to Fox News. They were covering it. It wasn't wall-to-wall until the rioting started, but then again, nothing is until it's on fire.

And how much has actually been done to reform policing methods in the last few years as more and more black men have died in encounters? Has anything really changed? Apparently in Baltimore they think not.

Absolute garbage. Why don't you wait to find out how the man died first? Did you know he had a spinal injury prior to arrest? Why don't you spell out all the facts you know--including the precise cause of death?

I have argued that some of the criminal laws are counter productive and just stupid. The war on drugs was largely fought in black neighborhoods, despite the use of drugs being the same in black versu white commuunities.

The President could have made that Job 1, yes? Why didn't he?

Btw, white communities don't have violent gangs marauding their streets, so there is a difference.

7. The war on drugs has been waged primarily in communities of color where people of color are more likely to receive higher offenses. According to the Human Rights Watch, people of color are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs than whites, but they have higher rate of arrests. African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses. From 1980 to 2007 about one in three of the 25.4 million adults arrested for drugs was African American.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... ed-states/

When you use an op-ed written on a socialist website, you don't gain credibility. There are many reasons why "men of color" get longer jail sentences: prior criminal history being one. It's too easy to do make it all about race. It's more complex than that.

And, burning down businesses in your backyard does not help solve the poverty problem.

In 68 the effects of the GI Bill had help create a white middle class. Black families that had men serve in WWII had been shut out of GI Bill. (The effects of that systemic discrimination are still felt.)

Reason? Source? Why didn't LBJ or JFK fix it?

The draft was sending far greater percentage of black men to Viet Nam then white

Which means they should have received VA benefits and joined the middle class--unless Democrats voted for a clause to prevent blacks from getting it that was never challenged under the equal protection clause. Please explain.

And Martin Luther King had just been assassinated.

Okay.

Today far more black men end up in jail after being apprehended for a crime. There is still vast inequality in school funding and in economic opportunity.

Whose fault is "school funding?" Maryland is dominated by Democrats.

The war on drugs has been lost, with black families paying the most for the loss, and tax payers footing the bill for needless incarcerations that weigh down society.

Sure. Go visit an American jail. Talk to some of the harmless drug violators. Oh, but first: take several years of self-defense. Those "non-violent" inmates will kick your buttocks.

So much time passes and so little changes. Except that those who rise up in protest are largely ignored until they get violent. Then they are blamed.

No one is complaining about the protests. How about the rioting?

Again, Democratic-dominated state, Democratic-dominated city. So, the problem is . . . a lack of resources? Nope. Taxes are too low? Nope.

Poverty is often self-inflicted.

Listen, my grandmother was a single mom of five. She lived in Los Angeles. Her two oldest were hoodlums. However, all five went on to have productive lives and two of them are millionaires.

According to liberals, it was either lightning in a bottle or because she was white. Having seen some of it, I would say it was her hard work.

Fate

. There are many reasons why "men of color" get longer jail sentences: prior criminal history being one. It's too easy to do make it all about race. It's more complex than that.

Go ahead, name some of these reasons...
Since they go to jail more often than whites for first offenses, prior criminal history is down to race too by the way.

Here's a few of the investigations into the inequality of the American justice system that you could parse for supporting evidence...
https://www.vsb.org/publications/valawy ... aville.pdf
excerpt

This report reveals serious findings of systematic unequal treatment
of African American and Hispanic Americans and other
minorities, as compared to their similarly situated white counterparts
within the criminal justice system.

http://www.civilrights.org/publications ... -on-trial/
excerpt

Today, our criminal justice system strays far from this ideal. Unequal treatment of minorities characterizes every stage of the process. Black and Hispanic Americans, and other minority groups as well, are victimized by disproportionate targeting and unfair treatment by police and other front-line law enforcement officials; by racially skewed charging and plea bargaining decisions of prosecutors; by discriminatory sentencing practices; and by the failure of judges, elected officials and other criminal justice policy makers to redress the inequities that become more glaring every day.

fate

Please help me understand how it is okay to hurt innocent people by looting and burning down their businesses? By stopping them from going to work?

This is an interesting question actually. Although the immediate reaction is to say "never", in fact there are famous cases of rioting, violence, looting and burning that are almost reveered...
The Boston Tea Party where three American ships cargoes were mostly destroyed by rioters.
Like wise the Pine Tree riots...
The Burning of the Peggy Stewart
The Liberty riots
Then there's slave revolts like in New York City and Nat Turners revolt.
The French revolution was a series of riots...
I could go on...

The question is what makes the blacks rioting on Holy Week in 68, or in LA in 92 or in Baltimore now, different then the rioters who are held in high regard for their acts of resistance to what they perceive as injustice?

rickyp wrote:Fate

. There are many reasons why "men of color" get longer jail sentences: prior criminal history being one. It's too easy to do make it all about race. It's more complex than that.

Go ahead, name some of these reasons...
Since they go to jail more often than whites for first offenses, prior criminal history is down to race too by the way.

Really? So, per capita, who commits more homicides? Is that "down to race" too?

fate

Please help me understand how it is okay to hurt innocent people by looting and burning down their businesses? By stopping them from going to work?

This is an interesting question actually. Although the immediate reaction is to say "never", in fact there are famous cases of rioting, violence, looting and burning that are almost reveered...
The Boston Tea Party where three American ships cargoes were mostly destroyed by rioters.
Like wise the Pine Tree riots...
The Burning of the Peggy Stewart
The Liberty riots
Then there's slave revolts like in New York City and Nat Turners revolt.
The French revolution was a series of riots...
I could go on...

Yes, you could find all manner of irrelevant comparisons. Go ahead, explain how the Tea Party is analogous. I'll wait.

The question is what makes the blacks rioting on Holy Week in 68, or in LA in 92 or in Baltimore now, different then the rioters who are held in high regard for their acts of resistance to what they perceive as injustice?

No, the question is why do you pontificate when you know nothing?

Let me ask you a question Ricky: when have you been to Baltimore?