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Post 24 Apr 2015, 4:13 pm

geojanes wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:However, the transition was abrupt, brought about by foreign disinvestment, and the results have not been too encouraging.

The economic problems in South Africa always existed for the vast majority of people. It was only that Apartheid provided most of the wealth to whites.


True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it?


Whites weren't stripped of their land in South Africa, they were given title to it. You must be thinking about Zimbabwe.

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_in_post-apartheid_South_Africa

In 1994, the newly elected African National Congress began to develop a program of land reform. This includes three primary means of reform: redistribution, restitution, and land tenure reform.[13] Redistribution aims to transfer white-owned commercial farms to black Africans.[13] Restitution involves giving compensation to land lost to whites due to apartheid, racism, and discrimination.[13] Land tenure reform strives to provide more secure access to land.[13] Several laws have been enacted to facilitate redistribution, restitution, and land tenure reform. Section 25 of the new South African Constitution, adopted in 1994, promised land reform to blacks in exchange for giving property titles to whites who acquired the property under prior regimes.[18] But while the titles were given out, the land reform was never implemented [18] The Provision of Certain Land of Settlement Act of 1996 designates land for settlement purposes and ensures financial assistance to those seeking to acquire land.[13] The Restitution of Land Rights Act of 1994 guided the implementation of restitution and gave it a legal basis.[13] The Extension of Security of Tenure Act of 1996 helps rural populations obtain stronger rights to their land and regulates the relationships between owners of rural land and those living on it.[13] So far, these land-reform measures have been semi-effective. By 1998, over 250,000 black South Africans received land as a result of the Land Redistribution Programme.[13] Very few restitution claims have been resolved.[13] In the five years after the land reform programs were instituted, only 1% of land changed hands, despite the African National Congress’s goal of 30%.[13]


As of 2006 about 70% of the land in South Africa was still owned by whites.

What's going on in South Africa right now is terrible, and the country has big problems, but are you suggesting that it would be better if Apartheid hadn't ended? If not, then what are you saying?


http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2 ... uth-Africa

More here:

ERMELO, South Africa -- In a country cursed by one of the world's highest murder rates, being a white farmer makes a violent death an even higher risk.

Whether attacks have been motivated by race or robbery, a rising death rate from rural homicides is drawing attention to the lack of change on South Africa's farms nearly two decades after the end of apartheid -- and to the tensions burgeoning over enduring racial inequality.

Some of South Africa's predominantly white commercial farmers go as far as to brand the farm killings a genocide.

'Potentially explosive' issue
On the other side of the divide, populists are seizing on the discontent among the black majority to demand a forced redistribution of white-owned farms along the lines of neighboring Zimbabwe.

"The issue is potentially explosive," said Lechesa Tsenoli, deputy minister for land reform, arguing that South Africa's future depends on ending inequality on the farms.

The economic change promised by Nelson Mandela's African National Congress (ANC) when white-minority rule ended in 1994 has been even slower in the countryside than in cities and mines, where at least small elites of black South Africans have prospered.

Land ownership ratios are little changed from 1913, when the Natives' Land Act set aside 87 percent of land for whites. Meanwhile, black farm workers are among South Africa's poorest.

But life is getting more uncomfortable for the white farmers, too. Their number is down a third, to some 40,000, in the past 15 years. Headlines about the farm killings are another incentive to sell.

For while South Africa's overall annual murder rate has more than halved since the end of apartheid to around 32 people per 100,000, figures for commercial farmers show a near 50 percent rise to an average rate of some 290 per 100,000 a year in the five years to 2011.


No, to your question.

I am saying the radical change in government has resulted in massive upheaval, increases in crime (overall), and has done nothing to help poverty. I am saying a more gradual shift of power, and a less punitive sentiment, would have likely lessened this difficulty.
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Post 24 Apr 2015, 5:45 pm

danivon wrote:Absolutely correct. Wealth has not really transferred, and certainly there has not been any real measure of "stripping the whites of their land". Either DF is confused about the country he's talking about, or he is misinformed.


Yeah, because you're probably an expert. Why don't you take a trip to SA and report back?

Also, South Africa is seeing increased foreign investment, as it retains its position as top target for FDI in the continent. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/ ... YF20140128


Great, how's the inflation? What about government corruption? Why are there blackouts? Why does the water get shut off?

I am confused as well. South Africa is better for most people there than it was 30 years ago. It's worse for some. Some have left for other places. And people have migrated to South Africa from neighbouring countries to seek a better life. I am not a fan of the way that the ANC has become a power-centre with a built in majority vote (for now) - I would rather that it had dissolved into its constituent parts after the Mandela transtional years (which were fairly quick, but nowhere near as abrupt as the changes in some Eastern European countries post-1989).


No Eastern European country had the same level of racial issue.

Crime is a big issue. So is the plight of the poor whites (the rich whites are pretty fine comparitively). But I don't recall anyone calling it a "workers paradise".


Meh, a minor mea culpa. Rickyp holds it up pretty consistently in comparison to Israel.

The thread is based upon a straw man, it appears DF is confusing the situation with that of Zimbabwe which may well mean the underlying assumptions for his case are faulty, and I don't see what the case really is here:


Not hardly. I know folks from Zimbabwe. Their 4000% inflation rates were not so long ago.

Here's how the thread actually began. Do try to read it.

Doctor Fate wrote:So often, one contributor here has praised South Africa. After all, they rid themselves of apartheid and isn't that good?


Now, I did not say "apartheid is good." What I did imply is that there is more to taking a nation beset by a racist system and making it "good" than simply putting blacks in charge. As a small point, not every country has to start an anti-corruption bureau. http://www.southafrica.info/about/gover ... TrlBpPMjao

Furthermore in answering my own question about whether getting rid of Apartheid was good, I said:

Well, yes.


So, stop with all the nonsense people, and try reading. Instead of inferring what I mean, why not read it?

As you ask, geo, I also wonder - is DF saying it was better under Apartheid? Or what?


Hoo-boy. Please, did I say that?

I answer the question myself: No.

The country is not getting better. It is descending into chaos.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 5:20 am

DF, from some of your own evidence:

nbc wrote:Whether attacks have been motivated by race or robbery, a rising death rate from rural homicides is drawing attention to the lack of change on South Africa's farms nearly two decades after the end of apartheid -- and to the tensions burgeoning over enduring racial inequality.


Suggesting that the pace of change has not been that sudden, or punitive, from the government

nbc wrote:Land ownership ratios are little changed from 1913, when the Natives' Land Act set aside 87 percent of land for whites. Meanwhile, black farm workers are among South Africa's poorest.


So you accept that the whites have not been "stripped of their land"?

nbc wrote:South Africa's overall annual murder rate has more than halved since the end of apartheid to around 32 people per 100,000


So, while there is more violence against white commercial farmers, overall the murder rate has halved. Overall, this must be seen as an improvement, yes?

DF wrote:No Eastern European country had the same level of racial issue.
Ahem. Yugosavia had a massive ethnic issue. It led to years of war and there is still massive resentment. Land was stolen, people murdered. etc etc. Maybe that passed you by.

="DF"]Now, I did not say "apartheid is good." What I did imply is that there is more to taking a nation beset by a racist system and making it "good" than simply putting blacks in charge.
That is not what happened. What happened was that over 5 years the apartheid system was broken down by the National Party government of de Klerk. And part of that was allowing democracy. The ANC won that democratic election. The fear had been (given that the ANC was close to the SACP and COSATU) that it would embrace hard left policies, but in reality the economic policies were more centrist (liberal/social democratic). Instead of what you call a "punitive" change, there was the "Truth and Reconciliation" process, which looked at the crimes of people on all sides, and encouraged them to own up and atone, rather than simply be punished.

Also, the ANC is not "black". There always were and still are prominent white members and leaders.

back to

DF wrote:No Eastern European country had the same level of racial issue.
So why did South Africa have such a level of racial issues?

Was it perhaps the legacy of decades of state-instituted racism, where people were categorised by skin colour, where those who opposed Apartheid were shot down in the street (or picked up by the cops and quietly disposed of)?

South Africa is not a paradise. And it always was pretty crappy for the vast majority of people. But it is better than it used to be.

I am saying the radical change in government has resulted in massive upheaval, increases in crime (overall), and has done nothing to help poverty. I am saying a more gradual shift of power, and a less punitive sentiment, would have likely lessened this difficulty.


1) As you have yourself quoted, the murder rate is down, overall. I suspect that a lot of lesser crime went unreported under Apartheid (and then we have the state crimes)

2) The government changed, but the economic system did not radically alter. The counter to your position is that a lot of SA's problems stem from a lack of radical change.

3) Before the transition, there was a very real concern that the end of Apartheid would come along with a massive blood-letting, a civil war. That did not happen (and when you compare to many other African countries, it looks very positive). case in point, Zimbabwe. Rhodesia was similar to South Africa, but instead of a democratic transition, you had 15 years of civil war, followed by a one-party state under an increasingly unhinged dictator. South Africa compares pretty well (which is why Zimbabweans have been moving to South Africa)

4) I wonder how that would have been achieved, your preferred solution of a gradual shift of power. Seriously, please explain how that would have happened, who would have overseen it, and why it would not have simply led to other problems. Should they have kept some Apartheid legislation a bit longer?
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 6:23 am

So, while there is more violence against white commercial farmers, overall the murder rate has halved.


It should probably be noted here that murder rates have gone into decline right across the world since the early 90s. The last days of apartheid seemed to have coincided with the global peak for violent crime, so we'd logically expect to have seen some kind of a decline since then.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 7:44 am

sass, perhaps (although South Africa is not a typical western society). But if so, it shows Say doing as well as USA or UK.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 8:53 am

danivon wrote:So you accept that the whites have not been "stripped of their land"?


No, because "little change" in percentage does not mean many individuals have not seen "change." The article says it was 13% in 1913. It is now 18%. I read another piece that said it was over 20. This says, concerning farmland, it is unknowable.

nbc wrote:South Africa's overall annual murder rate has more than halved since the end of apartheid to around 32 people per 100,000


So, while there is more violence against white commercial farmers, overall the murder rate has halved. Overall, this must be seen as an improvement, yes?


As long as you're not a white farmer.

DF wrote:No Eastern European country had the same level of racial issue.
Ahem. Yugosavia had a massive ethnic issue. It led to years of war and there is still massive resentment. Land was stolen, people murdered. etc etc. Maybe that passed you by.


Maybe you're not familiar with the difference between ethnicity and race. Read up. Maybe it passed you by. http://www.differencebetween.net/scienc ... -and-race/

="DF"]Now, I did not say "apartheid is good." What I did imply is that there is more to taking a nation beset by a racist system and making it "good" than simply putting blacks in charge.
That is not what happened. What happened was that over 5 years the apartheid system was broken down by the National Party government of de Klerk. And part of that was allowing democracy. The ANC won that democratic election. The fear had been (given that the ANC was close to the SACP and COSATU) that it would embrace hard left policies, but in reality the economic policies were more centrist (liberal/social democratic).


I would argue they simply became more corrupt.

Also, the ANC is not "black". There always were and still are prominent white members and leaders.


Yeah, not focused on race at all. http://www.politicsweb.co.za/party/this ... nc-govts-r

back to

DF wrote:No Eastern European country had the same level of racial issue.
So why did South Africa have such a level of racial issues?

Was it perhaps the legacy of decades of state-instituted racism, where people were categorised by skin colour, where those who opposed Apartheid were shot down in the street (or picked up by the cops and quietly disposed of)?


Yes.

South Africa is not a paradise. And it always was pretty crappy for the vast majority of people. But it is better than it used to be.


A dubious claim. Again, take a visit. I've not been, but two of my best friends have been there a few times. Their harrowing tales would stop me from going.

I am saying the radical change in government has resulted in massive upheaval, increases in crime (overall), and has done nothing to help poverty. I am saying a more gradual shift of power, and a less punitive sentiment, would have likely lessened this difficulty.


1) As you have yourself quoted, the murder rate is down, overall. I suspect that a lot of lesser crime went unreported under Apartheid (and then we have the state crimes)


I suspect the government is now under-reporting crime. I suspect the government is corrupt. No, I don't suspect it, it is. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pound.html
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 8:59 am

fate
Meh, a minor mea culpa. Rickyp holds it up pretty consistently in comparison to Israel.


The only ways in which I've compared Israel and South Africa is when I quote Desmond Tutu and others when they describe the situation in the occupied territories on the West bank as "apartheid".

Tutu stands by his description today. And he oughta know.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 9:12 am

rickyp wrote:fate
Meh, a minor mea culpa. Rickyp holds it up pretty consistently in comparison to Israel.


The only ways in which I've compared Israel and South Africa is when I quote Desmond Tutu and others when they describe the situation in the occupied territories on the West bank as "apartheid".

Tutu stands by his description today. And he oughta know.


It's called "hyperbole" and Tutu would be an expert on Israel how?

If Tutu said Canada was a system of "apartheid" would he be right?
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 9:36 am

fate
It's called "hyperbole" and Tutu would be an expert on Israel how?

If Tutu said Canada was a system of "apartheid" would he be right?


He's an expert on what apartheid is, and looks like, and how it effects the disadvantaged. Yes.
And he has criticized Canada too.

Aug 1990 South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu visits Osnaburgh Ojibway Reserve in northwestern Ontario. He says that Canada's treatment of its Native people is similar in many ways to South Africa's treatment of blacks under the system of apartheid.


he's right, to an extent. Canadian treatment of Natives up to the 60's was abhorrent. And we still haven't come to terms with the problems native reserves and our system of managing "Indian Affairs" caused and still causes. (taking children away for education to residence schools where they were often abused, relocation of bands in areas where they could not continue their previous lives)
Part of the problem is also that there is a certain dynamic tension within the aboriginal community about holding on to the past and developing as part of the first world. Contradictions, that aboriginals themselves have a hard time balancing. And which they haven't yet agreed to solutions within their own community.
But they have gained a lot of political power since the 60's in constitutional matters that goes beyond their population size, and that has lead to a lot of change. Most good.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 9:44 am

rickyp wrote:fate
It's called "hyperbole" and Tutu would be an expert on Israel how?

If Tutu said Canada was a system of "apartheid" would he be right?


He's an expert on what apartheid is, and looks like, and how it effects the disadvantaged. Yes.
And he has criticized Canada too.


That does not make him an expert on Israel. So, his statement is an opinion. He's welcome to it.

[
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 10:42 am

Doctor Fate wrote:It's called "hyperbole" and Tutu would be an expert on Israel how?

Maybe his best friends went there once. :smile:
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 10:58 am

danivon wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:It's called "hyperbole" and Tutu would be an expert on Israel how?

Maybe his best friends went there once. :smile:


Maybe. Let's ask him.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 2:05 pm

When he visited Israel in 1989, he was called a "Black Nazi pig".

He also was part of a team that went over in 2008 to investigate the Best Hanoun deaths.

He has been to Israel more often than you have been to SA.

But don't let us stop you asking him.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 2:15 pm

danivon wrote:When he visited Israel in 1989, he was called a "Black Nazi pig".

He also was part of a team that went over in 2008 to investigate the Best Hanoun deaths.

He has been to Israel more often than you have been to SA.

But don't let us stop you asking him.


Well, in light of this overwhelming evidence, sure, Israel is an apartheid state, probably on its way to "evil empire" status.

That is your weakest argument since . . . last week.
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Post 25 Apr 2015, 2:41 pm

No, you asked what Tutu knows about Israel. He's been there.

Now, back to the subject at hand - South Africa. What would you rather had happened, and how would it have worked in relation to the Apartheid laws?