bbauska

My main problem is how this issue is being blown out of proportion w/o the investigation (by both sides)

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What issue?
The shooting death of one man in Missouri?
Or the shooting deaths of black men by police generally?
In 2012, police departments reported 409 "justifiable homicides". Surprisingly police departments only make voluntary reports of police shootings. So the number was probably much higher. Shouldn't reporting something like this be mandated? Or is this a fact that scares people?
Most shootings are of mentally ill, or black men, (often both).
I don't know how you can blow out of proportion an issue of such selective violence by police forces ... And I think thats the issue Bbauska, this shooting is just a horrible symbol of this fact.
If you are a black person the "issue" is about the incredible danger a black man faces when he encounters law enforcement. Not just this one shooting.
The issue is about three things:
- the prevalence of guns
- racial discrimination
- police discipline and policing the police.

The point being that without the prevalence of guns, and laws that make it easier for citizens to justify the use of firearms, police wouldn't feel as threatened.
With community policing tactics over military style policing there would be a greater respect that comes with familiarity.
With improved entrance requirements for police officers, and improved training that focusses on things like how to deal with encounters with the mentally ill, and how to make an impact as a community cop, there would be fewer issues.
In 2012 British cops fired guns 3 times. And no one died. The basic reason, the absence of guns,
On a strictly actuarial sense,as the presence of guns in society increases, the chances you will die from a gun shot increases . They aren't making anyone safer.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... med-police

Speaking of blowing things out of proportion...

You can try to conflate this into a racial issue. To me, it is not one. I don't care what color Wilson or Brown is. I just want to have justice done.

One man and a police officer had an altercation and the man died. Now lets find out what happened.

geojanes wrote:For some reason the US (generally) gives cops and firefighters carte blanche, while teachers and other public servants are demonized. Whatever cops and firefighters want, they tend to get: good pay, fantastic benefits, gold plated pension, etc.

That's easy to understand. Teachers work days and have summers off. Police officers work long shifts, all year round in jobs that could end up with them dead or seriously injured.

Not saying it is true just that is the basis of the dichotomy.

bbauska wrote:Wilson did certainly shoot Brown. Agreed. The police force does not handle PR well. I am all for an investigation. If Wilson is found to have improperly use his weapon and illegally killed Brown, I am all for Wilson being tried and executed if found guilty.

Executed? I'd settle for imprisonment, especially as it's not likely to be first degree murder anyway.

Does anyone have a problem with the looters being tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law if found guilty?

Not really. I'd also like to see overzealous cops held to account for their actions.

bbauska wrote:You can try to conflate this into a racial issue. To me, it is not one. I don't care what color Wilson or Brown is. I just want to have justice done.

One man and a police officer had an altercation and the man died. Now lets find out what happened.

The reality is that race is a part of this. It is not all of it, but it is a part. As an isolated incident, you can say it's not relevant, but we see reports from across the USA where the black guy seems to come off worse when interacting with cops than the white guy.

You may be colour-blind. But are the people involved? Is the police force that has a small proportion of non-white officers but looks after a largely black community?

danivon wrote:

bbauska wrote:Wilson did certainly shoot Brown. Agreed. The police force does not handle PR well. I am all for an investigation. If Wilson is found to have improperly use his weapon and illegally killed Brown, I am all for Wilson being tried and executed if found guilty.

Executed? I'd settle for imprisonment, especially as it's not likely to be first degree murder anyway.

Does anyone have a problem with the looters being tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law if found guilty?

Not really. I'd also like to see overzealous cops held to account for their actions.

We never agree on how much punishment do we. We do agree that the guilty should be punished.

danivon wrote:

bbauska wrote:You can try to conflate this into a racial issue. To me, it is not one. I don't care what color Wilson or Brown is. I just want to have justice done.

One man and a police officer had an altercation and the man died. Now lets find out what happened.

The reality is that race is a part of this. It is not all of it, but it is a part. As an isolated incident, you can say it's not relevant, but we see reports from across the USA where the black guy seems to come off worse when interacting with cops than the white guy.

You may be colour-blind. But are the people involved? Is the police force that has a small proportion of non-white officers but looks after a largely black community?

This does show who is more concerned with race. To me, race doesn't matter. Reverend King said in his most famous speech:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Who is following Reverend King's dream?

Archduke Russell John wrote:That's easy to understand. Teachers work days and have summers off. Police officers work long shifts, all year round in jobs that could end up with them dead or seriously injured.

Not saying it is true just that is the basis of the dichotomy.

It's not really true, at least not from what I've seen. Teachers may only be seen to work school hours but do have to do a lot before and afterwards. And most teachers I know (admittedly it may be cushier in the US) also work summertimes as well.

But we should be wary - elevating teachers is not as dangerous as being held to ransom by people with a lot of guns.

bbauska wrote:

danivon wrote:

bbauska wrote:You can try to conflate this into a racial issue. To me, it is not one. I don't care what color Wilson or Brown is. I just want to have justice done.

One man and a police officer had an altercation and the man died. Now lets find out what happened.

The reality is that race is a part of this. It is not all of it, but it is a part. As an isolated incident, you can say it's not relevant, but we see reports from across the USA where the black guy seems to come off worse when interacting with cops than the white guy.

You may be colour-blind. But are the people involved? Is the police force that has a small proportion of non-white officers but looks after a largely black community?

This does show who is more concerned with race. To me, race doesn't matter. Reverend King said in his most famous speech:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Who is following Reverend King's dream?

I am addressing the world as it is. You are addressing it as you wish it would be. Did King give up talking about race after he made that speech? Did he ignore imbalances and injustice on racial grounds?

No.

Follow the 'dream', sure - but also you could look at the man's work before you cite him as a means of trying to take the moral high ground.

Not claiming any high ground. Just asked a question that you chose to avoid. Let me re-ask it.
"Who is more concerned with race?"

As for Reverend King;
He did want a color blind society, but did not live to see it. Sadly we are not there, but continuing to take race as a major reason for your actions is not a way to make strides to what Reverend King dreamed of.

Well, first assess whether what the officer did was wrong. Then assess whether he acted wrongly because of racial perceptions. Then assess what could be done to stop such incidents in the future. In general, high-stress situations can bring out biases that people will not consciously admit. 50 years ago police officers were openly racist. Now we have situations where sometimes white officers act in high-stress situations based on stereotypes that young black men are more dangerous, rather than dealing with the facts at hand. I have no doubt that an almost all-white police force dealing with a mostly black community reinforces those stereotypes. A more diverse police force and training to override those stereotypes are potential remedies.

freeman3 wrote:Well, first assess whether what the officer did was wrong. Then assess whether he acted wrongly because of racial perceptions. Then assess what could be done to stop such incidents in the future. In general, high-stress situations can bring out biases that people will not consciously admit. 50 years ago police officers were openly racist. Now we have situations where sometimes white officers act in high-stress situations based on stereotypes that young black men are more dangerous, rather than dealing with the facts at hand. I have no doubt that an almost all-white police force dealing with a mostly black community reinforces those stereotypes. A more diverse police force and training to override those stereotypes are potential remedies.

Agreed on all.

With regard to firefighters and policemen, they are heroes in American culture. They are perceived to confront dangers that most won't and risk their lives to save others. They represent the masculine ideals of courage and saving others. Teaching is more "nurturing" as are other social service occupations. A lot of those jobs are held by women. So we also have a breakdown on gender and historically women have been paid less than men (and still are) If we want other public service employees to be treated on a par with firefighters and policemen , we need to recognize the underlying forces at play here.

I don't necessarily have a problem with police officers and firefighters getting better pay and conditions than teachers. There's a much greater personal risk involved in those professions and it ought to be reflected in their employment contracts. What I do have a problem with is that the police seem in many cases to operate as if they're above the law. If a police officer acts improperly (even if they kill somebody, as we're discussing here) the inevitable response is that the rest of the force will close ranks and do everything possible to try and make sure their colleague never has to face punishment for it. I understand why they do it of course, but it's wrong and needs to be stamped out. The fact that the police are so often allowed to get away with murder (literally in so many cases) means that you're inevitably going to get incidents like this one.