Ricky, imagine what would happen if Israel did not occupy the West Bank and control Gaza? What would be the result? Based on the past 66 years a large increase in terrorist attacks against Israelis would happen

The record of Israeli terrorism goes back to the origins of the state—indeed, long before—including the massacre of 250 civilians and brutal expulsion of seventy thousand others from Lydda and Ramle in July 1948; the massacre of hundreds of others at the undefended village of Doueimah near Hebron in October 1948;...the slaughters in Quibya, Kafr Kassem, and a string of other assassinated villages; the expulsion of thousands of Bedouins from the demilitarized zones shortly after the 1948 war and thousands more from northeastern Sinai in the early 1970's, their villages destroyed, to open the region for Jewish settlement; and on, and on." Noam Chomsky, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchen

It is simply extraordinary and without precedent that Israel's history, its record—from the fact that it...is a state built on conquest, that it has invaded surrounding countries, bombed and destroyed at will, to the fact that it currently occupies Lebanese, Syrian, and Palestinian territory against international law—is simply never cited, never subjected to scrutiny in the U.S. media or in official discourse...never addressed as playing any role at all in provoking 'Islamic terror.'"Edward Said in "The Progressive." May 30, 1996.

So some sort of Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza is necessary for Israel 's security

Long and deep tunnels (to the Israeli side with only one purpose: terror)

Tunneling is said to have begun in the early 1980s when the border was reestablished after Israel withdrew from Sinai. Initially, the tunnels were used for moving consumer goods and drugs. During the First Intifada (December 1987 to 1993), they became conduits for weapons and militants

The blockade of the Gaza Strip has caused a shortage of certain basic products, especially construction materials, fuel, some consumer articles, and medicines and medical supplies.[7][8] Import restrictions, including of basic building materials, have led to the proliferation of tunnels under the border with Egypt.[9][10] As Israel limits the Palestinian freedom of movement, for most Gazans the tunnels are the only way to move from and to Gaza.

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Perhaps they should produce their own

How does one "produce" water?
It is a natural resource... Its either there or its not...
but if you actually want to try and understand the problem with water in the Palestinian territories
here:

Water supply and sanitation in the Palestinian territories are characterized by severe water shortage and are highly influenced by the Israeli occupation. The water resources of Palestine are fully controlled by Israel and the division of groundwater is subject to provisions in the Oslo II Accord.
Generally, the water quality is considerably worse in the Gaza strip when compared to the West Bank. About a third to half of the delivered water in the Palestinian territories is lost in the distribution network. The lasting blockade of the Gaza Strip and the Gaza War have caused severe damage to the infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.[8][9] Concerning wastewater, the existing treatment plants do not have the capacity to treat all of the produced wastewater, causing severe water pollution.[7] The development of the sector highly depends on external financing.[5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supp ... erritories

or http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 46684.html

bbauska

Do you think the Gazans are within their rights to fire rockets at Israel because the "feel" occupied?

Were the indigenous people of North America within their rights to resist the White Man?
Are the Kurds within their rights to resist the occupation of Mosul by Isis?
Were Iraqis within their rights to resist the occupation of Iraq by the US?
Was the french resistance in WWII within its rights when it sabotaged and assassinated German officers?
Was Irgun within its rights when it bomberd the JKing David Hotel?

I expect your view of the above varies according to your personal perspective...
I don't know personnally if Gazans are "within their rights". but I can understand why their constant frustrations find them supporting the rocketing... Can you?

rickyp wrote:ray

Long and deep tunnels (to the Israeli side with only one purpose: terror)

The tunnels main use and its original use is smuggling

Tunneling is said to have begun in the early 1980s when the border was reestablished after Israel withdrew from Sinai. Initially, the tunnels were used for moving consumer goods and drugs. During the First Intifada (December 1987 to 1993), they became conduits for weapons and militants

.

The blockade of the Gaza Strip has caused a shortage of certain basic products, especially construction materials, fuel, some consumer articles, and medicines and medical supplies.[7][8] Import restrictions, including of basic building materials, have led to the proliferation of tunnels under the border with Egypt.[9][10] As Israel limits the Palestinian freedom of movement, for most Gazans the tunnels are the only way to move from and to Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip ... ng_tunnels

freeman3 wrote:Here is an article that gives possible explanations as to why the civilian casualties are so high.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ng-experts
This article about the casualties seems well-balanced.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/pa ... aza-israel

When you start talking about 300 dead Palestinian children...I think Israel needs to reassess its tactics.

It may well be the case that sometimes Israel is forced into an impossible choice between ignoring rocket attacks and bombing a civilian structure, in which it is at least defensible for Israel to privilege its self-defense and bomb the building. But in a larger view it is very difficult to imagine that a Palestinian threat that has killed seven Israeli civilians is dire enough to justify attacks that have killed 815 Palestinian civilians.

But I would argue that non-violent Palestinians have a right to their homeland as well.

I apologize if I offended you, Ray, but I would be surprised if you don't see this situation as state-sponsored Israeli persecution of others. Don't you think that Jews, of all people, would have learned that lesson by now, having been on the wrong end of it for so many generations?

rickyp wrote:"But an equally valid lesson, which is one shared by most Gazans, is that you have to fight for yourself because no one else will reliably do that for you."

The tunnels from Gaza to Israel do not have a commercial purpose

To Israel, every tunnel — be it one that brings food into an impoverished Gaza Strip where over half of the population depends on food aid or one that delivers sheep to a Khan Younis farmer who lost his other farm animals to a prior Israeli incursion — is a “terror tunnel”. The phrase alone has given Israel the impunity it feels it needs to enact vengeance against the Gaza’s population. After all, “terror tunnels” was the pretext for Israel’s repeated bombardment of the Shuja’iyya neighborhood or the Jabalya Refugee Camp, where hundreds including many children were massacred and thousands displaced.
“Terror tunnels” is also why entire city blocks were wiped off the map, or why every single building in Beit Hanoun is either damaged or demolished, or why Eid Al-Fitr wasn’t celebrated in Gaza. “Terror tunnels” is Israel’s attempt at justifying war crimes and human rights abuses in the Strip, which are increasingly being investigated by the United Nations and other international observers.
Israel’s media strategists and spokespeople have been trained to bring up the “terror tunnels” as often as possible. In some cases, they even present the tunnels with unsubstantiated claims that they were built to ‘massacre’ Israelis.
The message they give is that Palestinians are popping out of the ground like groundhogs, and that Israel is simply hammering them back into the ground. Israel is, in essence, basing its invasion of the Gaza Strip on a hypothetical. But Gaza is all too familiar with this. Each Israeli major military offensive on the Gaza Strip has been announced as a necessary defensive maneuver to keep Israel from being wiped off of the map. Meanwhile, Israel wipes Gaza off the map.
Incidentally, one such “terror tunnel” made its way onto cameras yesterday when Hamas fighters filmed their infiltration of the Nahal Oz military base in southern Israel. Five Israeli soldiers were reported killed.
In another “terror tunnel” story that happened today, three Israeli soldiers fell into a booby-trapped tunnel entrance in the southern Gaza Strip.
While the Israeli government continues to purport the idea that the tunnels are meant to target thousands of Israelis, we are left with the very obvious: every single military assault carried out by Palestinian fighters that has used an infiltrating tunnel has only ever targeted Israeli soldiers. In other words, armed tunnel activity is targeting armed and active combatants, not civilians or noncombatants. Maybe Israel can learn a thing or two.
Meanwhile, the death toll in Gaza has just exceeded 1,300. Most of the dead, according to the United Nations, are civilians, with over 250 children.
Israel, who says that it acts solely in self-defense, is enacting on Gaza the kind of destruction and misery that it projects to the world as its greatest fear.
Israel, whose spokespeople say it acts “as surgically as is humanly possible,” has no regard for civilians in the Gaza Strip.
Israel, with its seemingly endless supply of advanced and pinpoint-accurate weaponry, has demolished entire neighborhoods and taken so many lives in search of tunnel entrances no larger than two meters in width.

The Gazans are not fighting for themselves

Sameh, a prominent political analyst in Gaza, told The Times of Israel Wednesday.
But the quiet, he said, is deceptive. “It’s not over yet. Hamas is under a lot of pressure to return to fighting if Egypt and Israel don’t allow the blockade to be lifted,” Sameh said.
The residents of the Gaza Strip are torn between wanting the fighting to go on and wanting it to stop, he added.
“Those who have lost their children and relatives actually want the fighting to continue. So do those whose houses were destroyed,” he said. “They don’t have anything to lose anymore, and they are pressuring [Hamas] not to stop now unless the blockade is lifted completely. On the other hand, those whose houses are still standing want it to end.”
Sameh added, “You are sorely mistaken if you think it’s over. Have you seen any of the Hamas top brass leave the bunkers? From the political or the military wing? Yesterday, they said in no uncertain terms: We’re in the middle stage, not at the end of the war. And they are already preparing for the renewal of the clashes. They can’t stop now without a significant achievement in Cairo.”

rickyp wrote:ray

The tunnels from Gaza to Israel do not have a commercial purpose

.

Whats your source for that claim?
Here's a Palestinian source with a view on the tunnels I bet you don't hear too often
Maybe it help explains why i think that Israel is solving nothing...

To Israel, every tunnel — be it one that brings food into an impoverished Gaza Strip where over half of the population depends on food aid or one that delivers sheep to a Khan Younis farmer who lost his other farm animals to a prior Israeli incursion — is a “terror tunnel”. The phrase alone has given Israel the impunity it feels it needs to enact vengeance against the Gaza’s population. After all, “terror tunnels” was the pretext for Israel’s repeated bombardment of the Shuja’iyya neighborhood or the Jabalya Refugee Camp, where hundreds including many children were massacred and thousands displaced.
“Terror tunnels” is also why entire city blocks were wiped off the map, or why every single building in Beit Hanoun is either damaged or demolished, or why Eid Al-Fitr wasn’t celebrated in Gaza. “Terror tunnels” is Israel’s attempt at justifying war crimes and human rights abuses in the Strip, which are increasingly being investigated by the United Nations and other international observers.
Israel’s media strategists and spokespeople have been trained to bring up the “terror tunnels” as often as possible. In some cases, they even present the tunnels with unsubstantiated claims that they were built to ‘massacre’ Israelis.
The message they give is that Palestinians are popping out of the ground like groundhogs, and that Israel is simply hammering them back into the ground. Israel is, in essence, basing its invasion of the Gaza Strip on a hypothetical. But Gaza is all too familiar with this. Each Israeli major military offensive on the Gaza Strip has been announced as a necessary defensive maneuver to keep Israel from being wiped off of the map. Meanwhile, Israel wipes Gaza off the map.
Incidentally, one such “terror tunnel” made its way onto cameras yesterday when Hamas fighters filmed their infiltration of the Nahal Oz military base in southern Israel. Five Israeli soldiers were reported killed.
In another “terror tunnel” story that happened today, three Israeli soldiers fell into a booby-trapped tunnel entrance in the southern Gaza Strip.
While the Israeli government continues to purport the idea that the tunnels are meant to target thousands of Israelis, we are left with the very obvious: every single military assault carried out by Palestinian fighters that has used an infiltrating tunnel has only ever targeted Israeli soldiers. In other words, armed tunnel activity is targeting armed and active combatants, not civilians or noncombatants. Maybe Israel can learn a thing or two.
Meanwhile, the death toll in Gaza has just exceeded 1,300. Most of the dead, according to the United Nations, are civilians, with over 250 children.
Israel, who says that it acts solely in self-defense, is enacting on Gaza the kind of destruction and misery that it projects to the world as its greatest fear.
Israel, whose spokespeople say it acts “as surgically as is humanly possible,” has no regard for civilians in the Gaza Strip.
Israel, with its seemingly endless supply of advanced and pinpoint-accurate weaponry, has demolished entire neighborhoods and taken so many lives in search of tunnel entrances no larger than two meters in width.

http://smpalestine.com/2014/07/30/a-thi ... r-tunnels/

rickyp wrote:ray

The Gazans are not fighting for themselves

Who then?

When i read stuff directly, from Gaza I get this...Sounds like they are fighting for themselves...