Interesting note...
My wife read the post from Sass about isolation. She completely agreed that homeschooling parents often ensure there kids miss out on formative experiences in the public schools. She even gave a few examples:
Bullying
Gangs
Gunfire
Drugs
Contrary values

Formative experiences don't have to be positive ones. I do think you're exaggerating the gangs and the guns and (at least to some extent) the drugs, I don't believe most American schools are really like that, but this is beside the point. Out there in the world all of these things exist and you can only shelter your children from them for so long. In school you're forced to interact with a much wider range of people, many of whom are not very nice, and it teaches you a different range of social skills that will most likely come in handy in later life.

I'm actually not so sure that the educational attainment argument is the most important thing. I consider myself pretty well educated, and I went to a pretty good school, but in truth I probably learned almost everything I know just by reading a lot. I'm quite sure your wife and yourself can teach your kids to the standard needed to do well in their exams, and if you encourage them to be inquisitive and to read widely then they'll do better than a lot of their peers who are in the school system. I still think they're missing out on a lot though, and they'll become increasingly conscious of this as they get older.

Btw, I feel it's quite telling that you chose to cite 'contrary values' as one of the primary negatives. I rather confirms my suspicions about the main reason for homeschooling. George has a point of course that a small number of children really can't hack it in mainstream schooling and would benefit from being homeschooled, but I tend to doubt that many homeschoolers really fall into that category.

bbauska

Contrary values

Values? What do you actually mean by values?

Values is such a vague term, Especially when wielded by politicians it becomes a code word. It also always seems to be the resort of those who want to armor their views from scrutiny or criticism. Its okay to "think a certain way" because its a personal value, and because its a "value" you can't criticize...

The one part about a public education is that it does expose a child to other values. To a certain extent to new ways of thinking, perhaps different cultures.
It is possible for a home schooled child to gain that through participation in things other than school of course. Athletics and clubs ...And I don't diminish the job that many parents do in achieving great results with their children. I admit that is the norm.

But the notion that a family needs to shut out the world in order to protect their "values" is usually an indication that there are somethings about the outside world that seriously challenges the values or have greater attraction.
Insular societies and insular families face the same problems.
Once you seen New York city, how you gonna keep them on the farm.
If a family has communicated to the young their values, shouldn't they survive despite the exposure to other ideas or values? If you fear that they can't ..... frankly i don't think that to start with that they are not terribly strong.

Aren't you moving the goalposts just a bit, George? First, you said a sizeable minority would do better if they were homeschooled. That would indicate something like 20-30 percent. So that would mostly be ordinary kids. Now you mention those with special needs. Well, of course kids who are autistic or have learning disabilities might benefit from personal attention that they can't get at school. But that is a very small percentage of kids. And I am not going to argue that those special needs kids have to go to regular school. Maybe I should adjust my statement to say that I think that all kids who don't have learning disabilities should go to public (or private) school.
The reality is that many times kids are scared of going to public school and/or parents try to protect them. Most of the time those fears are overblown and kids benefit from overcoming their fears and learning how to deal with people with different backgrounds and even (as Sass pointed out) dealing with some not very nice kids. There were certainly times growing up when I did not want to go to school but you get through it (and I did not go just or primarily to mostly white surburban schools--the high school I attended in 11th and 12th grades had a very small percentage of white students--but I wound up liking it better than the white, highly ranked school I went to in the 9th and 10th grades because the kids were a lot nicer) I think homeschooling for everyone would be an absolute disaster for the country, but it's up to parents.

So we need to be accepting of other views, and let them be impactful on our children? OK, guess if that is acceptable, then people having other views than a gay hairdresser should be treated equally?

Yes, that is a sidebar. But it is indicative of what I perceive as a double standard.

How many formative experiences of bullying are ok?
I have zero at my home.

How many formative experiences of drugs are ok?
I have zero at my home.

How many formative experiences of gangs are ok?
I have zero at my home.

Guns? Zero

When it comes to contrary values, we talk of these all the time. I use Redscape as a discussion forum with my 10 and 9 year old. They hear plenty of contrary views, but they also hear our families values. We follow Proverbs 22:6

To answer RickyP's comment about the farm kid and NY. I am a farm kid. I have been all over the world (31 countries and 49 states), been stationed in Boston, Seattle, Key West, and visited NY and LA. Not to mention, Toronto, Montreal, Cartegena, Caracas, London, Dublin and a myriad of others.

I am now living in farm country. Your point is disproved.

geojanes wrote:This is ideology. What you're saying has nothing to do with reality. And ideologically I agree with you. But the reality is that there are kids who are different: physically, mentally, socially, who are completely marginalized, stigmatized and/or ostracized in a typical school environment. Some kids, maybe 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 1000 may be deeply harmed either physically or mentally by the experience. Those kids should not be in a standard school environment, especially since schools don't adapt to their special needs. When parents can rescue those kids from those situations, that's great and should be supported by everyone, including you. The tragedy is these special need kids who don't have parents who can provide them such a situation and are failed in so many serious ways by the school experience.

Don't you have schools set up for kids with special educational needs (SEN)? Or a system whereby SEN kids are picked up in the 'normal' school environment but given assistance.

I don't think it is pure 'ideology' to say that socialisation benefits children - we are a social animal and need wider contact than just our families.

Yes there are kids who are different. But we ought to be normalising them as much as we can, because it also happens that there are many adults who are different, and if we don't introduce children to the reality of difference and show them how to be tolerant, how do they grow up to treat different people when adults?

I think the real key is to look at what the school experience is. I don't know how different it is in the US today to what it was when I was in a UK state school 25 years or so ago, and I do understand that bullying and the like do happen. I don't necessarily think that the right response to bullying is to pull a kid out.

bbauska wrote:My wife read the post from Sass about isolation. She completely agreed that homeschooling parents often ensure there kids miss out on formative experiences in the public schools. She even gave a few examples:
Bullying
Gangs
Gunfire
Drugs
Contrary values

Schooling (and childhood) are not just about learning employable skills, they are also about learning how to live as an adult human. Like it or not, all of those things are present in adult life. And learning how to deal with them is a key part of adapting to that.

Certainly I've seen bullying in a workplace and between adults in various situations. Kids who live where there are gangs at school are likely to live in an area where there are gangs outside school as well. Similarly 'gunfire', and drugs.

And like Sass and rickyp, I am actually concerned about the 'contrary values' thing. Because you will find that in all walks of life, frankly. The sooner we learn that other people have different values and are not necessarily going to agree with yours, but you still have to be able to get along, then the better.

What I see is that parents are (understandably) very protective of their kids. But that protective instinct can sometimes become a latent danger in itself, if it means that those kids grow up unaware of how to deal with things they will encounter in an adult reality. Or even as kids.

The danger with protecting a child from the bad bits of reality too much is that once they get their independence and start to push through parental boundaries, they can end up embracing the very dangers you try to keep them away from out of ignorance or rebellion. I've seen that, too.

I never said homeschooling is for everyone, Freeman. I don't think that was George's point either.

I do, however disagree with Germany's position that nobody is allowed to homeschool. That is the opposite extreme.

bbauska
I

am now living in farm country. Your point is disproved

I guess New York is empty now?

bbauska wrote:So we need to be accepting of other views, and let them be impactful on our children? OK, guess if that is acceptable, then people having other views than a gay hairdresser should be treated equally?

Yes, that is a sidebar. But it is indicative of what I perceive as a double standard.

Please try not to pollute this thread with that other one. And everything where you do not agree is a 'double standard' - frankly that line is getting very boring.

Accepting that other views exist, and coming up with ways to deal with them is what we are talking about. That's different from always treating people with different views the same. No way am I going to treat a racist the same way as I treat a non-racist.

How many formative experiences of bullying are ok?
I have zero at my home.

So how do your kids deal with bullying if it ever happens to them? How do they avoid being a bully themselves if they never see it and what is wrong with it?

How many formative experiences of drugs are ok?
I have zero at my home.

So how do they know about drugs and how to avoid them (or even if they should)?

How many formative experiences of gangs are ok?
I have zero at my home.

So how do they deal with gangs in the streets when they are older - or do you keep them locked up in the house until they are 18? Of course, if your local area does not have criminal gangs, then they are not likely to be an issue in schools. If you mean the more common tribal associations that adolescents form in schools (or at camp, or in youth groups, or wherever), well that's not really so bad necessarily, and those things also exist outside the home and school.

Guns? Zero

Maybe not, but there is at least one gun for every American, so you know pretty well that they can encounter them at some point.

It's great that you don't have those things at home. But they exist outside your home. I didn't have those things at home either, and I did see some of them at school (not guns or drugs - unless you count cigarettes) but certainly bullying and (non-criminal) gangs. Was it nice? Not always, no. Did I learn from it - yep.

When it comes to contrary values, we talk of these all the time. I use Redscape as a discussion forum with my 10 and 9 year old. They hear plenty of contrary views, but they also hear our families values. We follow Proverbs 22:6

"Start children off on the way they should go,
and even when they are old they will not turn from it."

Nice idea. I can show you families where that simply has not worked. Brothers and sisters with the same upbringing who have completely different paths in life and totally different values.

Talking about 'contrary values', or showing them writing about them is a bit different from dealing with things face-to-face. In fact, the message you give by self-segregating from 'contrary values' and the people that hold them seems to be to disengage rather than accept. I'm not sure that's healthy.

All of your assumptions that I self-segregate are incorrect. We are part of society, and are around guns. We talk about drugs and gangs. We even had (SHOCK!) another child who was being bullied, and my children went to the parents to let them know. They also told us also. I would think you would agree that is the right course of action.

I also think that dangerous activities such as "cutting", binge parties, drunken orgies, and hanging out with drug dealers for entrepreneurial advice is not just part of the formative experiences of childhood. Shall I start my children down that path?

I never said that I am perfect, or that Proverbs 22:6 is the end all. It is just how I CHOOSE to live my life. Why must I not have the choice?

I have said this before in other forums, and it seems to always come down to this. I want the choice to live my life and raise my children the way I see fit. Perhaps that is not the freedom of choice as you see it.

Do I tell everyone to be homeschooled? No.

bbauska wrote:All of your assumptions that I self-segregate are incorrect. We are part of society, and are around guns. We talk about drugs and gangs. We even had (SHOCK!) another child who was being bullied, and my children went to the parents to let them know. They also told us also. I would think you would agree that is the right course of action.

I am sure is a correct course of action. But I only came to the conclusion of self-segregation on the basis of your wife's words (as quoted by you) in particular regarding the 'contrary values' thing that your kids were missing out on.

I also think that dangerous activities such as "cutting", binge parties, drunken orgies, and hanging out with drug dealers for entrepreneurial advice is not just part of the formative experiences of childhood. Shall I start my children down that path?

Are these really frequent occurrences in the public schools of Walla Walla? For schools that cater for 9-10 year olds? (so that is 'Junior High' level or below?).

Could you perhaps be exaggerating a little about what really happens in school premises?

I never said that I am perfect, or that Proverbs 22:6 is the end all. It is just how I CHOOSE to live my life. Why must I not have the choice?

You have the choice to try. I'm not saying you can't. I'm suggesting that just because a proverb says something does not make it universally true. As I say, I've seen kids go in completely a different direction to their parents (and their siblings), despite the best efforts of those parents to show them the way they think is best.

The problem really is that as much as you can choose how you live your life, you cannot actually choose how your kids will end up. Your actions and choices will have an influence, but not the absolute determination (and even with the best of intentions, be counter-productive). Why? Because they also have the choice to live their lives as they want.

I have said this before in other forums, and it seems to always come down to this. I want the choice to live my life and raise my children the way I see fit. Perhaps that is not the freedom of choice as you see it.

Should that freedom be an absolute?

Do I tell everyone to be homeschooled? No.

Have I said no-one can be homeschooled? No.

I have zero at my home.

I'd make three points here Brad. Firstly, you're wildly exaggerating the typical school experience for effect. chances are there are very few instances of gang violence or guns or drugs at the school either. There will of course be a certain amount of bullying, but that goes in most walks of life. As you just said, you live in a rural area, it's not like you'd be sending your kids to school in South Central LA.

Secondly, my point was that zero is probably too few. Maybe not in the case of the guns, It speaks well of you that you don't keep a lethal weapon around the place where children are present, but having a complete lack of any exposure to things like bullying and drugs isn't the best way to prepare somebody for later life when they have to leave your home and venture out on their own. People who have led sheltered upbringings frequently go off the rails when they get their first taste of independent living. I saw it so many times at university.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, school isn't all about bad experiences. Exposure to a much wider group of your peers on a daily basis allows you to find your own level, to form lifelong friendships which are rooted in common shared experiences, to meet members of the opposite sex, to experiment with all kinds of different activities until you find what you're really interested in, to express yourself. For sure some of this can be done in other settings, but school exposes you to a much bigger group of people your own age than any other setting and offers far more social opportunities. I think it's an important first step on the road to adulthood.

freeman3 wrote:Aren't you moving the goalposts just a bit, George? First, you said a sizeable minority would do better if they were homeschooled. That would indicate something like 20-30 percent. So that would mostly be ordinary kids.

I may have. I don't really have a good sense of what the number of children who really shouldn't be in public school is. Maybe its more than 0.1% and less than 10%. But it's not zero, which is what you said in your post, (or was it " 'every' child should go to public school")

freeman3 wrote:Now you mention those with special needs. Well, of course kids who are autistic or have learning disabilities might benefit from personal attention that they can't get at school. But that is a very small percentage of kids. And I am not going to argue that those special needs kids have to go to regular school. Maybe I should adjust my statement to say that I think that all kids who don't have learning disabilities should go to public (or private) school.

It's far more than learning disabilities. Social and physical disorders too. Perhaps even behavioral as well. I would also add if your school is for shit and you don't have a choice, and you can give a child a better education at home, and you're able and willing to do so, then that also benefits that child.

freeman3 wrote:The reality is that many times kids are scared of going to public school and/or parents try to protect them. Most of the time those fears are overblown and kids benefit from overcoming their fears and learning how to deal with people with different backgrounds and even (as Sass pointed out) dealing with some not very nice kids.

Eh, that's certainly some of them, but they're certainly not the ones who need to home schooling. I think what you should really think about is that every child is different, with very different needs and most schools are really poorly suited to serve children who are outliers. Even if you have special need programs they often lump all special needs kids into the same program even though those special needs kids may represent the complete spectrum of disorders: often their needs are not met and they're being warehoused. And, frankly, for these outliers--the square pegs if you will--recognition of their needs can possibly make all the difference in the course of their lives. The stakes are so incredibly high that you can't hang their fate on ideology. Every case must be evaluated case-by-case.

George, my point is that for your typical kid I don't think that homeschooling is necessary nor it better than having kids attend public school. Maybe I am wrong but I suspect that most kids that are home-schooled don't have any problems that would prevent them from attending public school. To the extent that kids can be identified that can't handle public school, then if their parents can homeschool, that's great. I suspect that there would be a large number of false positives, but that is up to the parents.
Of course, with so many families being two-income there are not a lot of families that can homeschool. And it would seem that perhaps that we should be seeking ways to educate kids who have special needs through programs provided by public schools, rather than relying on a remedy only available to the few. But, sure, if kids really can't function in the public school environment, then I am ok with parents doing whatever they think is necessary for their kids. That is why I think the choice should be left to the parents, because who are we to make these choices for the parents.
But you made a very positive comment about homeschooling and my reaction is that most homeschooling is due to overprotective parents and parents who are religious and don't want outside influences on their child. Only a small proportion is for those with special needs. I agree with your argument with regard to those kids with special needs, but not that homeschooling in general is good. I'll concede that my original statement was too broad, I guess I should have said most kids and not every kid.

Brad has made the point that it should be his right as a parent to choose the way that he wants to raise his children. I'm sure we're all sympathetic to that argument, but like most of these individual rights discussions if you examine it in more detail you inevitably come up against conflicting rights that aren't always easy to reconcile. What about the rights of the child ? To pick an example which is almost certainly relevant in Germany, with its huge immigrant population, there are many conservative muslims who don't believe that girls should be educated at all. Do these parents have the right to choose an inferior or non-existant form of education for their daughters, in keeping with what they see as their religious values ?

Freeman,
I agree that the choice of schooling should be left to the parent. Do you think that every child should have the funds available to them for schooling so a less affluent child has the same options for either public, private or home school?

Sass,
Perhaps we should correct the faulty, and leave those who are doing nothing wrong to their choices? (Sounds like gun rights all over again)