geojanes wrote:Conversation starter for tomorrow's holiday feast:

"President Donald J. Trump."

It's all you need to say to get a conversation going. No more awkward silences!

At that point, I'll have Adele ready.

I can see a bunch of people choking on their turkey when that is said!
Myself, it will call for a big swig of Southern Tier Pumking Ale I just got for my Holiday Feast!

GMTom wrote:I can see a bunch of people choking on their turkey when that is said!
Myself, it will call for a big swig of Southern Tier Pumking Ale I just got for my Holiday Feast!

I'm going with, "What do you suppose Hillary is thankful for this year?"

Doctor Fate wrote:

geojanes wrote:Conversation starter for tomorrow's holiday feast:

"President Donald J. Trump."

It's all you need to say to get a conversation going. No more awkward silences!

At that point, I'll have Adele ready.

Come on, give it a try. It will work with supporters, for sure, but it works with people who were actively against him, and even those who are not politically engaged will have an opinion. All you have to do is say it, and then sit back: you won't have to say anything the entire meal.

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:

geojanes wrote:Conversation starter for tomorrow's holiday feast:

"President Donald J. Trump."

It's all you need to say to get a conversation going. No more awkward silences!

At that point, I'll have Adele ready.

Come on, give it a try. It will work with supporters, for sure, but it works with people who were actively against him, and even those who are not politically engaged will have an opinion. All you have to do is say it, and then sit back: you won't have to say anything the entire meal.

I prefer pleasant Thankgsgivings. I'll stick with Adele.

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:

geojanes wrote:Conversation starter for tomorrow's holiday feast:

"President Donald J. Trump."

It's all you need to say to get a conversation going. No more awkward silences!

At that point, I'll have Adele ready.

Come on, give it a try. It will work with supporters, for sure, but it works with people who were actively against him, and even those who are not politically engaged will have an opinion. All you have to do is say it, and then sit back: you won't have to say anything the entire meal.

maybe wait until the carving knife is put away ...

agreed, forcing me to listen to more than a song or two by Adele and I may be ready to stab someone, make it stop!

I don't know Trump seems like a relatively safe topic in my family gathering. "Trump is an idiot, a liar, a fraud". "No, he is a complete and utter idiot...". Not a big fight there...

Freeman,

I now have nearly a month before Christmas to purchase your crystal ball. Can you tell me where you found yours?

You are wrong to say what you've said about Sanders. The fact is, we will never know if he could have beaten Trump. I say he could have. You say not possible. My reasons are based on what was clearly a movement. You? You bought the same narrative that Wassermann and the New York Times wanted you to buy. Why was she fired?

Sanders never had the same access to $ nor the media machine. The DNC made sure of that. In their hubris, they got it so wrong that the country convulsed. Your crystal ball is worthless. I wouldn't trust it if I were you going forward.

I guess I try to assess things based on evidence, based on history. The recent history with liberal Democratic candidates is they have been crushed and, no, Obama is not very liberal--he falls squarely within the Clinton ideological orbit.

Sanders took advantage of the fact that the liberal wing of the Democratic Party was not very happy with Hillary being anointed as the Democratic nominee. But Democrats still voted for Hillary 58% to 42%. His success in the primaries would not have necessarily translated to success in the general election. Prior liberal Democratic candidates had been crushed.

Hillary had three major weaknesses in running: (1) she is a woman and our society is definitely not at a point where that is not a significant factor, (2) we just had 8 years of Democratic rule, and (3) she did not convincingly offer workers not doing well under globalism that she was going to do something to help them. So two of those three factors don't apply to Sanders. So far, so good.

But Sanders would likely have done quite a bit worse with the black vote than Hillary did. After all, black voters played a large role in getting Hillary the nomination. Moreover, Sander would have made the business community and Wall Street very nervous. They would have put up money to defeat him. Also, I have to believe that Republican voters would have been very energized to defeat a left-wing candidate. And whether Sanders would have played well in Michigan, Ohio & Pennylvania is anyone's guess.

Do I know that Sanders would have lost? No, I don't know. But we do know that the only Democrats to win since 1976 have been centrists. We also know the ACA is unpopular so Americas are not necessarily demanding socialist programs. Americans are not thrilled with paying the taxes they have, much less raising them. http://www.gallup.com/poll/1714/taxes.aspx

The only way that Sanders would have won is if we are such a polarized country that almost all Republicans and Democrats vote for their candidate no matter what and then the election just becomes about turnout. That kind of seems like what happened in this election. But Trump only won independents 48-42% and I strongly suspect that he would win Independents by a much larger margin if Sanders were running. I also think more centrist Democrats would have voted for Trump if Sanders were running, so if Sanders were in the race while there would be greater turn-out among young and liberal voters, but he would lose the center and that would off-set the turnout of his liberal base.

So I think I have logical, reasonable, common-sense reasons to think Sanders would not have beaten Trump.

In any case, I am not sure why you think the election invalidated my opinion that Sanders would have lost. For one thing that Comey letter likely swung the election. Otherwise, Hillary likely wins. Trump is an outsider candidate but other than vague claims about trade he is not seeking to fundamentally rework the economic system. It takes a very large leap of faith that America has changed so much that a candidate farther left than McGovern, Dukakis and Mondale (all of whom not just lost but were absolutely crushed) could get elected, especially since we are not in dire economic circumstances.

I still comfortable in supporting Hillary--it was a very close race and an extremely small swing in votes in Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania would have changed the race. She is now up by 1.7 million votes overall. I very, very much doubt that a 74 year old, professorial leftist would have done that well.

freeman3 wrote:The only way that Sanders would have won is if we are such a polarized country that almost all Republicans and Democrats vote for their candidate no matter what and then the election just becomes about turnout. That kind of seems like what happened in this election. But Trump only won independents 48-42% and I strongly suspect that he would win Independents by a much larger margin if Sanders were running. I also think more centrist Democrats would have voted for Trump if Sanders were running, so if Sanders were in the race while there would be greater turn-out among young and liberal voters, but he would lose the center and that would off-set the turnout of his liberal base.

Most of the mushy middle in a presidential election could care less about policy, they vote for the person. We'll never know what would have happened, but Sander's is a quality person, and that would have played well to the huge mushy middle of American politics. The DNC needs to get out into the world more.

Mondale, McGovern, and Dukakis were all quality people...

freeman3 wrote:Mondale, McGovern, and Dukakis were all quality people...

same with Dole and Romney.

Re Dukakis, I've seen him 3 different times around town.

I was once walking on a long road near a park where there was absolutely no one else nearby but the two of us. I was about 100 feet behind him. I don't know if he even knew I was there. He passed some litter on the sidewalk, picked it up, and put it in the trash. Character is what you do when no one else is looking.

geojanes wrote:

freeman3 wrote:The only way that Sanders would have won is if we are such a polarized country that almost all Republicans and Democrats vote for their candidate no matter what and then the election just becomes about turnout. That kind of seems like what happened in this election. But Trump only won independents 48-42% and I strongly suspect that he would win Independents by a much larger margin if Sanders were running. I also think more centrist Democrats would have voted for Trump if Sanders were running, so if Sanders were in the race while there would be greater turn-out among young and liberal voters, but he would lose the center and that would off-set the turnout of his liberal base.

Most of the mushy middle in a presidential election could care less about policy, they vote for the person. We'll never know what would have happened, but Sander's is a quality person, and that would have played well to the huge mushy middle of American politics. The DNC needs to get out into the world more.

I am sure that his personality would have gone over well. But the four months before the election would have given his opponent and his allies a chance to get a lot of attacks in. My guess would be a two pronged approach, the "he is nice but naive", and the "he is a commie who wants to destroy America". As we can see, Trump is quite capable of playing moderate if he needs to.

As much as I would want Sanders to win, realistically the US is not going to elect a democratic socialist.

freeman3 wrote:Mondale, McGovern, and Dukakis were all quality people...

Perhaps the better way to say it, Sanders has a personality that resonated with our time. He's been completely consistent politically his entire life, showing integrity that was absent, and because of our times, that would have really resonated this year.

But we'll never know, and it doesn't really matter, except that we know the decayed, hollowed out core of the DNC needs a complete makeover.