Doctor Fate wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:Whether you graduate high school, get to college, avoid meth, and adequately plan for pregnancy is somewhat up to the individual, no? I would say that it is mostly up to the individual.

Squarely in the middle of the Republican party.

Except that I favor gun control (within the limits of the US constitution including via Amendment), avoidance of ground wars (except when absolutely necessary), legalized marijuana, and legalized same sex marriage.

Doctor Fate wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:Whether you graduate high school, get to college, avoid meth, and adequately plan for pregnancy is somewhat up to the individual, no? I would say that it is mostly up to the individual.

Squarely in the middle of the Republican party.

What happened to "family values"? Don't parents, and even grandparents and extended family, have some influence and responsibility here?

Neither do I. But I still think it's a bit glib to make out that life can so easily be planned out.

However, I'm not sure that 'socialism' is the cause either - as it existed before welfare came along.

Ray Jay wrote:Except that I favor gun control (within the limits of the US constitution including via Amendment), avoidance of ground wars (except when absolutely necessary), legalized marijuana, and legalized same sex marriage.

I think you may be surprised at exactly how squarely this would put you within the Republican party RJ.

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. April 9-10, 2011. N=824 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.5
"Do you favor or oppose the legalization of marijuana?"
ALL: 41% favor/56% oppose | REPUBLICANS: 28% favor/70% oppose
link: http://www.pollingreport.com/drugs.htm

CNN/ORC Poll. May 29-31, 2012. N=1,009 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.
"Do you think marriages between gay and lesbian couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?"
ALL: 54% should/42% should not | REPUBLICANS: 23% should/73% should not
link: http://pollingreport.com/civil.htm

Pew Research Center. 8/25 - 9/6/10. N=1,514 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 2.9.
"What do you think is more important -- to protect the right of Americans to own guns, or to control gun ownership?"
ALL: 46% right to own/50% control | REPUBLICANS: 70% right to own/26% control
link: http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

Archduke RJ apparently has a very unclear picture of what the Republican Party is like. Favoring gun control, legalized marijuana and same-sex marriage puts one "squarely" only in the left-most quartile.

Purple wrote:What happened to "family values"? Don't parents, and even grandparents and extended family, have some influence and responsibility here?

Watch yourself! You might go from Purple to Red.

See, the only ones who believe the family has no responsibility are the Democrats. Remember? "It Takes a Village." That's not just a book title; it's a mindset.

danivon wrote:Ok, you made it up. Does that still mean you are going to steadfastly refuse to even address the OECD study?

I did. I showed it is only a tiny minority who inherit their wealth. The fact that this is the case is enough on its face.

Purple wrote:CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. April 9-10, 2011. N=824 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.5
"Do you favor or oppose the legalization of marijuana?"
ALL: 41% favor/56% oppose | REPUBLICANS: 28% favor/70% oppose
link: http://www.pollingreport.com/drugs.htm

CNN/ORC Poll. May 29-31, 2012. N=1,009 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.
"Do you think marriages between gay and lesbian couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?"
ALL: 54% should/42% should not | REPUBLICANS: 23% should/73% should not
link: http://pollingreport.com/civil.htm

Pew Research Center. 8/25 - 9/6/10. N=1,514 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 2.9.
"What do you think is more important -- to protect the right of Americans to own guns, or to control gun ownership?"
ALL: 46% right to own/50% control | REPUBLICANS: 70% right to own/26% control
link: http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

Archduke RJ apparently has a very unclear picture of what the Republican Party is like. Favoring gun control, legalized marijuana and same-sex marriage puts one "squarely" only in the left-most quartile.

Meh.

By changing the wording, I could get far different results. For example, "Do you think marriage is a matter for each individual State to define or should the Federal government define it?" "Do you support the ability of Americans to own machine guns, RPG's and tanks?" "If Marijuana were treated more like alcohol, would that be a bad thing or a good thing?"

I think those results would be far more in keeping with what the Archduke has in mind.

Plus, those polls are "adults." I'm never in favor of such polls because we don't know how informed (or even truly "Republican) they are.

And I pointed out that you study showing that was a bit flawed. Not least because it only asked the rich how they got rich. What about everyone else?

Purple wrote:Archduke RJ apparently has a very unclear picture of what the Republican Party is like. Favoring gun control, legalized marijuana and same-sex marriage puts one "squarely" only in the left-most quartile.

Well considering I am an northeastern Republican which is also the same area of the country RJ is from let's look at this. Here is an article about Marijuana legal in PA. As you can see it says Republicans support it

Republicans split with 49 percent in favor and 47 percent opposed

So I think I am on fairly secure ground when I say supporting legalization puts you in the middle of the Republican party.

Here is an article about an April, 2011 poll in Pennsylvania about same sex unions that includes

with 68 percent saying they supported civil unions or gay marriage. This includes 54 percent of Republicans.

Here is gun control in PA. Granted it's an old poll (2007-8)but it says

Almost eight out of ten voters (77%) support a statewide ban on assault weapons, [snip] Over two thirds of Republicans (71%) favor a ban—

Considering RJ's comment was that he supports gun control within the bounds of the Second Amendment, I think this pretty much qualifies as a good indication of that.

Each poll clearly shows that a Republican in the Northeast, or at least Pennsylvania, holding those positions would be smack dab in the middle of the Republican Party. So apparently I do have a pretty good picture of what the Republican party is like in the Northeast.

Purple wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:Whether you graduate high school, get to college, avoid meth, and adequately plan for pregnancy is somewhat up to the individual, no? I would say that it is mostly up to the individual.

Squarely in the middle of the Republican party.

What happened to "family values"? Don't parents, and even grandparents and extended family, have some influence and responsibility here?

Fo minors, parentsI are certainly responsible. We all influence each other, even when we are not related. I'm trying to figure out the state vs. the individual question. Questions about family and extended family is a whole nother ball game.

Archduke Russell John

Each poll clearly shows that a Republican in the Northeast, or at least Pennsylvania, holding those positions would be smack dab in the middle of the Republican Party. So apparently I do have a pretty good picture of what the Republican party is like in the Northeast.

Yes, but in Texas I am seen differently, and it is a national Party. ARJ, wouldn't you agree that there are many people in the Republican Party who are trying and succeeding in moving to the right and would consider me a RINO or worse.

There are many independents moving right also. That is where you fit RJ.

This is just absurd. This sort of nonsense is what makes an online forum an exercise in futility.

Archduke Russell John wrote:

Purple wrote:Archduke RJ apparently has a very unclear picture of what the Republican Party is like. Favoring gun control, legalized marijuana and same-sex marriage puts one "squarely" only in the left-most quartile.

Well considering I am an northeastern Republican which is also the same area of the country RJ is from let's look at this. Here is an article about Marijuana legal in PA. As you can see it says Republicans support it

Republicans split with 49 percent in favor and 47 percent opposed

So I think I am on fairly secure ground when I say supporting legalization puts you in the middle of the Republican party.

Here is an article about an April, 2011 poll in Pennsylvania about same sex unions that includes

with 68 percent saying they supported civil unions or gay marriage. This includes 54 percent of Republicans.

Here is gun control in PA. Granted it's an old poll (2007-8)but it says

Almost eight out of ten voters (77%) support a statewide ban on assault weapons, [snip] Over two thirds of Republicans (71%) favor a ban—

Considering RJ's comment was that he supports gun control within the bounds of the Second Amendment, I think this pretty much qualifies as a good indication of that.

Each poll clearly shows that a Republican in the Northeast, or at least Pennsylvania, holding those positions would be smack dab in the middle of the Republican Party. So apparently I do have a pretty good picture of what the Republican party is like in the Northeast.

First: the marijuana he's referring to is medical marijuana (except he never shows that word here!). Legalizing marijuana and supporting the availability of medical marijuana are very different things. RJ didn't lkimit his desire to legalize to medical marijuana.

Second, he actually mis-interprets and mis-represents his own same-sex marriage poll. He wrote here: "with 68 percent saying they supported civil unions or gay marriage. This includes 54 percent of Republicans." The actual lines: "In general, a majority of Pennsylvanians support some form of legal recognition for same sex couples, with 68 percent saying they supported civil unions or gay marriage. This includes 54 percent of Republicans." Those republicans support some form of legal recognition for same sex couples, not full-blown civil union or gay marriage. RJ said he supports full-blown marriage, not just civil unions, not just "some form" of legal recognition.

Finally, the gun poll refers to "Assault" weapons. Banning those is not quite as far a step as repealing the second amendment, as RJ apparently supports.

I feel that if I were to correct someone and say, "no, the sky is blue", I'd be told that it's yellowish-purple on some days in Pennsylvania. CLICK HIS LINKS AND CONFIRM MY DESCRIPTION OF HIS THREE-IN-A-ROW ERRORS.

I haven't the foggiest idea what motivates ARJ and Dr. Fate to want to think that the Republican Party is pro-gay marriage, anti-2nd-amendment, and pro-legalization of all marijuana. What fantasy is this??

I have a feeling part of Dr. Fate's perceptive peculiarities are revealed when he questioned whether the people my CNN and Pew polls were reporting about were "even truly Republican". These pollsters, who avoid polling children about general policy preferences (thus "adults" - when the subject is an election prediction they'll focus in on "likely voters"), will often ask people if they identify with a party or are independents. In the old days the vast majority identified with one of the other party; these days the plurality usually declare themselves to be "independent". Now I say that if they choose to call themselves Republicans, and if my question is "what do Republicans think?", these polls will be helpful to me. Apparently Dr. Fate feels they'll deceive me, because somewhere - partially apart from and partially overlapping with "declared" Republicans?? - there's a body of people who would meet his definition of "true" Republicans.

Either he doesn't trust people to understand which party comes closest to their own ideology. Or perhaps he wants to exclude people who agree with 75% of the GOP platform instead of 95% of it. Or both. I could say a lot more about this, but I'd be extrapolating dangerously from an offhand remark, so I'll open a new thread entitled "RINOs" and I'll here invite Dr. Fate to explain there in more detail the difference between an adult who says he/she identifies with the Republican Party and a "TRUE" Republican.

As for Archduke Russell John - the rest of you are on your own. In my limited time here I have twice shown him to have posted arrant nonsense, and he's not taken either opportunity to admit his mistake like an adult and a gentleman. I can only assume he is neither and advise you accordingly to ignore him. I won't spend any more time making that seem a more decidedly wise course.

Don't be too hard on the Archduke. The political party he once knew, that held as a core component liberal republicans known as Rockefeller republicans has changed under his feet. Today a liberal republican is as rare as a lucid period for Glenn Beck.
He's just in denial about what the party has become, and will parse every arguement to where he can still comfortably still fit the leading Republican positions under his own belief system.
Sometimes that takes an awful lot of parsing and maybe a little editing. I think it would be easier to abandon the party and become an Independent...

A couple of years ago we had an arguement about the course of Gay Marriage in the US. I argued that demographically,that Gay marriage was inevitable. Now, the arguements against my position were of the ; biblical objection which was a non-sequitar and of the "t'll never happen here because we're a conservative nation"....
The fact is that today gay marriage is a reality in 7 states, that if DOMA goes to the Supreme Court the DOJ won't defend its constitutionality, and that the majority of Americans now support gay marriage. All thats happened in only a couple of years.
Conservatives have seen a lot of change that is distressing to their beliefs. (And Archduke is really only a fiscal conservative so this wasn't a problem for him or the 17 other rockefeller conservatives still left ..)

Right now, the election is about the economy and what to do about it. As it goes on, that will mean a constant reminder of "How we all got in this mess". Unfortunatly the mess was under Conservative watch after years of conservative solutions (increasing deregulation of financial industry, oil industry, lower taxes, leaving any industrial strategy to international corporations etc.) . It will be interesting to see whether the narrative continues as a clash of conservative philosophy versus reality or not.
Thats what I think the great recession ultimately means... A re-thinking of the philosophy that got us here... Its what the Occupy Wall Street was an expression of, and what the new debate on health care precipitated by the Scotus ruling will be about.....
Ideas that didn't work.
Now, Fate and B will argue that we never really were "conservative" enough. In the same way that Marxists still argue that Soviet Russia wasn't true to communism. But thats an extreme arguement.
Most middle class and working class voters...... are dealing with reality and expressions of ideological purity are not that appetizing.