rickyp wrote:bbauska

Do you really want to get into a Biblical discussion with me?

If we do, lets limit it to direct quotations of Christ. (supposedly) How will you do then? I think almost everything he's quoted on is about generosity to the poor.

Fine. Show me where Jesus says that a government should be taking care of charity instead of telling a person.

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Do you really want to get into a Biblical discussion with me?

If we do, lets limit it to direct quotations of Christ. (supposedly) How will you do then? I think almost everything he's quoted on is about generosity to the poor.

But don't. You know better than to get into these arguments Ricky. There are much better things to discuss here. Or move to the theology board.

geojanes wrote:

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Do you really want to get into a Biblical discussion with me?

If we do, lets limit it to direct quotations of Christ. (supposedly) How will you do then? I think almost everything he's quoted on is about generosity to the poor.

But don't. You know better than to get into these arguments Ricky. There are much better things to discuss here. Or move to the theology board.

Oh come on! He starts with the Biblical quotations, and you don't want me to take that? Where is the fun in that. Very well...

I really don't think there's anything useful that can be gleaned from the Bible where this subject is concerned. I'd also question the legitimacy of non-believers trying to make arguments based on Christian theology.

I searched for the biblical quote where Jesus says it's ok to oppose government aid to the poor..can't find it...perhaps one of our Biblical experts can supply it.

freeman3 wrote:I searched for the biblical quote where Jesus says it's ok to oppose government aid to the poor..can't find it...perhaps one of our Biblical experts can supply it.

You are turning the RickyP argument around. He was saying that we should be paying as a government for charity due to Biblical reasons.

Sassenach wrote:I really don't think there's anything useful that can be gleaned from the Bible where this subject is concerned. I'd also question the legitimacy of non-believers trying to make arguments based on Christian theology.

I do question his legitimacy in the theological field.

I searched for the biblical quote where Jesus says it's ok to oppose government aid to the poor..can't find it...perhaps one of our Biblical experts can supply it.

Why is this even part of the discussion ? I guarantee that we're not going to find a passage from the Bible that can tell us the appropriate way to deal with mass population movements in the 21st Century. I honestly don't know why Ricky brought this up unless it was just a cack-handed attempt at baiting Brad. Sure, there are various lines about showing compassion to the poor, but so what ? It's pretty ridiculous to say "Jesus said you should be compassionate, so if you call yourself a Christian you have to support open borders". It's ludicrous, especially coming from somebody who doesn't tend to use Biblical justifications for any of his other opinions.

Sassenach wrote:

I searched for the biblical quote where Jesus says it's ok to oppose government aid to the poor..can't find it...perhaps one of our Biblical experts can supply it.

Why is this even part of the discussion ? I guarantee that we're not going to find a passage from the Bible that can tell us the appropriate way to deal with mass population movements in the 21st Century. I honestly don't know why Ricky brought this up unless it was just a cack-handed attempt at baiting Brad. Sure, there are various lines about showing compassion to the poor, but so what ? It's pretty ridiculous to say "Jesus said you should be compassionate, so if you call yourself a Christian you have to support open borders". It's ludicrous, especially coming from somebody who doesn't tend to use Biblical justifications for any of his other opinions.

EXACTLY!

Sassenach wrote:I really don't think there's anything useful that can be gleaned from the Bible where this subject is concerned. I'd also question the legitimacy of non-believers trying to make arguments based on Christian theology.

Even though Christ was himself a refugee in Egypt, and specifically told people to care for foreigners who come to Israel as foreigners gave him sanctuary, I do get your point. Because basically as bbauska has shown, you can always find a biblical verse that supports your own point of view, and you just have to ignore the ones that contradict it.

What I think Ricky was trying to do was to say that the morality of the people does determine the morality of a democratic nation. If it does not appear to, then to me that says one of two things:

1) the stated morality of the people is in contrast to their actual beliefs
2) the people do not care sufficiently that the state differs to get that state of affairs changed.

To me it is not a religious point at all. We should, as humans, care about the plight of those fleeing war. And by "care" I mean more than emote, but allow ourselves to be put out a little by it.

I see your point Sass but I don't think I exactly agree with it. In the US religious views play a very significant role in opposition to abortion, opposition to dealing with climate change, opposition to sex education, opposition to evolution, opposition to gay marriage, etc. Therefore, if there is something in the Bible that goes against those views (or even if the support from the Bible is weak) it is something to bring up.

Perhaps. Personally speaking I'm an avowed atheist and I'd feel like a hypocrite to be making an argument based on scripture when I don't accept either the truth or the moral authority of it.

freeman3 wrote:I see your point Sass but I don't think I exactly agree with it. In the US religious views play a very significant role in opposition to abortion, opposition to dealing with climate change, opposition to sex education, opposition to evolution, opposition to gay marriage, etc. Therefore, if there is something in the Bible that goes against those views (or even if the support from the Bible is weak) it is something to bring up.

I would say that it's a context to be aware of, but we shouldn't be throwing around bible verses in a political forum. That crosses from understandable context to theological debate, where different faiths can have very different opinions, sometimes of even the same text. No place for that here.

Ok,ok...I'm not allowed to have any fun...

sass

especially coming from somebody who doesn't tend to use Biblical justifications for any of his other opinions.

Actually Sass i use the golden rule, or the The Ethic of Reciprocity all the time....
Its true I don't need to use the Bible to find the promotion of the Ethic. I could use the Koran, or Bhuddist teachings or more...
I used the Bible because the majority of US citizens are religionists who purport to follow the teachings of Christ. And who use the phrase, "What would Christ do?" all the time.
I think Christ would be more welcoming and supportive of the refugees than what bbauska proposes.

and thank you Danivon for interpreting me correctly and more eloquently presenting the argument.

What I think Ricky was trying to do was to say that the morality of the people does determine the morality of a democratic nation. If it does not appear to, then to me that says one of two things:

1) the stated morality of the people is in contrast to their actual beliefs
2) the people do not care sufficiently that the state differs to get that state of affairs changed.

To me it is not a religious point at all. We should, as humans, care about the plight of those fleeing war. And by "care" I mean more than emote, but allow ourselves to be put out a little by it