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Netanyahu Speech Before Congress

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  • by freeman3
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rickyp
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Post 23 Mar 2015, 5:43 am

ray
But my point is that this is the sort of things that exists throughout the western world. Aboriginal Canadians where you are, Pakistanis in the UK, African-Americans in the US all face these sorts of challenges.


Discrimination is not a "challenge."
And yes, it exists in some form for certain minorities in many nations.
But we're talking about Israel and Israeli Arabs here.So its good that you acknowledge that in Israel Arabs are discriminated against...
In the Occupied territories its worse than "discrimination".
I certainly haven't claimed that Israel's immigration policies should change, excepting that no immigration should be allowed into the occupied territories.
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danivon
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Post 23 Mar 2015, 9:56 am

Good whataboutery, though.
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Ray Jay
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Post 23 Mar 2015, 1:08 pm

danivon wrote:Good whataboutery, though.


Quite glib ... that's not my intent ... I'm giving context.
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Post 23 Mar 2015, 3:12 pm

Ray Jay wrote:
danivon wrote:Good whataboutery, though.


Quite glib ... that's not my intent ... I'm giving context.
And the context is what? Insitutionalised discrimination in one country should be given a pass because it happens elsewhere? I found the "context" to be glib. We may have issues in the UK with pakistanis feeling discriminated against, but I don't recall government members calling for them to have to make loyalty oaths.
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Post 23 Mar 2015, 4:56 pm

danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:
danivon wrote:Good whataboutery, though.


Quite glib ... that's not my intent ... I'm giving context.
And the context is what? Insitutionalised discrimination in one country should be given a pass because it happens elsewhere? I found the "context" to be glib. We may have issues in the UK with pakistanis feeling discriminated against, but I don't recall government members calling for them to have to make loyalty oaths.


No, the context is that when Israel has discrimination people question the legitimacy of the nation and its founding principles, but when the UK has discrimination no one says that it no longer has the right to exist.
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Post 24 Mar 2015, 5:52 am

ray
No, the context is that when Israel has discrimination people question the legitimacy of the nation and its founding principles, but when the UK has discrimination no one says that it no longer has the right to exist


which people are you referring to?
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Ray Jay
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Post 24 Mar 2015, 6:05 am

rickyp wrote:ray
No, the context is that when Israel has discrimination people question the legitimacy of the nation and its founding principles, but when the UK has discrimination no one says that it no longer has the right to exist


which people are you referring to?


Must be over 4 billion, as far as I can tell, including Danivon, as far as I can tell. The governing principles include a homeland for Jewish people. I don't see that as being forfeited if Israel behaves badly anymore than Russia loses its right to be a home for Russians when it behaves badly.
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Post 24 Mar 2015, 1:15 pm

ray
Must be over 4 billion, as far as I can tell, including Danivon, as far as I can tell


Danivon has never taken the position that Israel doesn't have a right to exist... And you know that.

Criticism of Israels bad behavior often gets hyperbolic responses that purposefully mis-state the specific criticism as an attack on Israels and or Jews existence.
Rather than face the criticism its so easy to play the racism card.
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Post 24 Mar 2015, 1:20 pm

Ray Jay wrote:No, the context is that when Israel has discrimination people question the legitimacy of the nation and its founding principles, but when the UK has discrimination no one says that it no longer has the right to exist.
I've no idea what your 4 billion comment is about. You are becoming quite obtuse...

Well, our founding principles go back a long way and are not really a single coherent set, but it's largely based on who had the biggest armies over a period of a thousand years. I'm not sure I can defend that as legitimate, let alone our monarchy (which is tamed now but still has too much influence).

Of course the discrimination thing is not really related to that. And no, I don't think that the mere existence of discrimination against Arabs in Israel is enough to warrant the removal of the Israeli state.

But do we in the UK have laws that treat people differently based on race? No, we have laws that explicitly ban it.

One other essential difference is that when the UK was formed, Pakistanis were not living there (rather, we many years later created the situation that led to Pakistan being a nation). Pakistanis have chosen to move here in living memory, and much of the root of discrimination against them is that of xenophobic host societies generally.

Arabs were living in what is now Israel when it was formed. In fact, Israel was explicitly formed on the basis of being an 'exclusive' idea - not simply a place where Israelis can call home, but a Jewish nation. A comparison would be that the UK is home to the English, and the Scottish, and the Welsh, and some of the Irish. But it is not an "English" state.

Israel has a right to exist as a nation, as much as any other. That does not give it carte blanche to be a discriminatory state, to define itself as one, or to act in a way that treats people who are just as much natives as the Hebrews as if they are second class citizens.
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Ray Jay
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Post 24 Mar 2015, 5:48 pm

rickyp wrote:ray
Must be over 4 billion, as far as I can tell, including Danivon, as far as I can tell


Danivon has never taken the position that Israel doesn't have a right to exist... And you know that.

Criticism of Israels bad behavior often gets hyperbolic responses that purposefully mis-state the specific criticism as an attack on Israels and or Jews existence.
Rather than face the criticism its so easy to play the racism card.


Give me a break. Stop playing the playing the racism card.

Danivon has taken the position that he has issues with Israel's right to exist as a Jewish country. I'll deal with that substance next post.
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Post 24 Mar 2015, 6:00 pm

danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:No, the context is that when Israel has discrimination people question the legitimacy of the nation and its founding principles, but when the UK has discrimination no one says that it no longer has the right to exist.
I've no idea what your 4 billion comment is about. You are becoming quite obtuse....


More insults...

Of course the discrimination thing is not really related to that. And no, I don't think that the mere existence of discrimination against Arabs in Israel is enough to warrant the removal of the Israeli state.

But do we in the UK have laws that treat people differently based on race? No, we have laws that explicitly ban it.

One other essential difference is that when the UK was formed, Pakistanis were not living there (rather, we many years later created the situation that led to Pakistan being a nation). Pakistanis have chosen to move here in living memory, and much of the root of discrimination against them is that of xenophobic host societies generally.
Arabs were living in what is now Israel when it was formed. In fact, Israel was explicitly formed on the basis of being an 'exclusive' idea - not simply a place where Israelis can call home, but a Jewish nation. A comparison would be that the UK is home to the English, and the Scottish, and the Welsh, and some of the Irish. But it is not an "English" state.

Israel has a right to exist as a nation, as much as any other. That does not give it carte blanche to be a discriminatory state, to define itself as one, or to act in a way that treats people who are just as much natives as the Hebrews as if they are second class citizens


This is the crux of the matter. The US was formed based on certain founding principles. It is an immigration country and in its charter is that there is no state religion. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty close. The UK is also to be held in high regard for its broad equality.

However, the founding principles of Israel are different. They are that it is both Jewish and Democratic. The UK promised Jews a homeland that included the West Bank in 1917. Of more importance, the UN agreed that there would be 2 states, one Jewish and one Arab. When Israel was founded the closest thing they have to a Constitution said that it is both Jewish and Democratic. That's been affirmed by their Supreme Court.

I realize that world view rankles you. It doesn't adhere to the US creed or the UK creed but that is the basis of Israel. It is not enough to say that you believe Israel has a right to exist. No, it has a right to exist as a Jewish country and a Democratic country. Muslims and Christians can live there with full legal rights. Yes, Israel has a right to exist as a nation. But it also has the right to exist as a Jewish nation. I agree that it doesn't have carte blanche to mistreat people. However, if it does act badly (and sometimes it does), that doesn't invalidate Israel's right to be a Jewish nation.
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Post 25 Mar 2015, 5:53 am

, it has a right to exist as a Jewish country and a Democratic country.

There IS a contradiction in being a Jewish country and a full fledged democracy with a diverse populace.
What happens if the Jewish majority status becomes threatened.?
(The danger in annexing the West Bank without the exodus of the Arabs in the West Bank....is that a greater Israel would have a substantially changed nature.) Democracies eventually reflect the will of the majority of people. And that would mean Israel might one day not be a Jewish nation in the same way it is...
Democracies change. Can Israel genuinely change?

Muslims and Christians can live there with full legal rights
.

But they don't actually enjoy the same privileges do they? As the Or report and others have documented, its one thing to have "constitutional rights" and another have a privileged status. Systemic discrimination exists in Israel against Arab Israelis.
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Post 25 Mar 2015, 7:33 am

Ricky:
There IS a contradiction in being a Jewish country and a full fledged democracy with a diverse populace.
What happens if the Jewish majority status becomes threatened.?


You don't understand. These hypotheticals are pointless. Israel will always be a Jewish country with a Jewish majority.
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Post 25 Mar 2015, 7:45 am

You don't understand. These hypotheticals are pointless. Israel will always be a Jewish country with a Jewish majority.


http://www.israelnsp.org/what-they-say/ ... allen.html

Israel finds itself confronting a growing demographic challenge. While the Jewish population in Israel is growing and getting younger, its share of the total Israeli population is diminishing. And while the state of Israel maintains its Jewish majority, the historic land of Eretz Israel -- the land lying between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River -- now holds an Arab majority.


As of February 2013, Jews constitute approximately 75.3 percent of the Israeli population, and Israeli Arabs make up around 20.7 percent of the population. (Source: Sergio DellaPergola, “Demographic Timebomb? People Power and the Future of Israel as a Jewish State,” Middle East Program, Wilson Center, February 14, 2013.) Click here to read about DellaPergola’s recent talk at the Wilson Center.
According to Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics, the population of Israel at the end of 2012 was estimated at 7.981 million. The Jewish population was approximately 6.015 million (75.4 percent of total population) and the Arab population was approximately 1.648 million (20.6 percent of total population). (Source: Gabe Fisher, “On eve of 2013, Israel’s population stands at cusp of 8 million,” Times of Israel, December 30, 2012.) Click here to read the piece.
According to official statistics released by Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics in April 2012, Jews now constitute a minority of the people living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, accounting for 5.9 million of the total 12 million people living under Israeli rule. “From now on, it is an official statistic
Last edited by rickyp on 25 Mar 2015, 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ray Jay
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Post 25 Mar 2015, 8:12 am

rickyp wrote:
You don't understand. These hypotheticals are pointless. Israel will always be a Jewish country with a Jewish majority.


http://www.israelnsp.org/what-they-say/ ... allen.html

Israel finds itself confronting a growing demographic challenge. While the Jewish population in Israel is growing and getting younger, its share of the total Israeli population is diminishing. And while the state of Israel maintains its Jewish majority, the historic land of Eretz Israel -- the land lying between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River -- now holds an Arab majority.


As of February 2013, Jews constitute approximately 75.3 percent of the Israeli population, and Israeli Arabs make up around 20.7 percent of the population. (Source: Sergio DellaPergola, “Demographic Timebomb? People Power and the Future of Israel as a Jewish State,” Middle East Program, Wilson Center, February 14, 2013.) Click here to read about DellaPergola’s recent talk at the Wilson Center.
According to Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics, the population of Israel at the end of 2012 was estimated at 7.981 million. The Jewish population was approximately 6.015 million (75.4 percent of total population) and the Arab population was approximately 1.648 million (20.6 percent of total population). (Source: Gabe Fisher, “On eve of 2013, Israel’s population stands at cusp of 8 million,” Times of Israel, December 30, 2012.) Click here to read the piece.
According to official statistics released by Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics in April 2012, Jews now constitute a minority of the people living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, accounting for 5.9 million of the total 12 million people living under Israeli rule. “From now on, it is an official statistic


So what. They aren't annexing Gaza and the whole West Bank so this is meaningless hypothetical.