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Post 10 Oct 2012, 6:45 am

danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:I believe that Israeli vigilance (political and military) is a gift to the world.
I believe it's still about the next Israeli election, which has just been triggered because Netanyahu realises he won't get an austerity budget through as things stand.

He has a good chance, because Kadima are floundering, Labour are only just coming together and he has a great foreign policy distraction to point to.


Just getting back to this. I think that Netanyahu is looking for support for both his economic and Iranian policies by hoping for a slight change in the Israeli Knesset. He does want a more classical liberal economic policy. 35% of Israel's exports are to Europe so they are feeling that a bit. He also wants a firmer hand vis-a-vis Iran. This seems like a reasonable, legal, and democratic strategy based on reasonable positions, whether you agree with them or not. There's nothing evil going on here.
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Post 11 Oct 2012, 10:55 am

I guess that despite the thread title of "MOSAD 1 Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan 0" this is the thread about Iran's nuclear weaponry program and the efforts to stop it. So here's where I will make a really outlandish prediction. Not even I really expect it to come true, but if it does I'll look like a genius.

Iran's nuke infrastructure is dispersed and hardened. Many and various reports and experts express extreme skepticism that air power can do more than dent it, causing some delays in Iran's timetable. A less-than-completely successful air attack would grievously harm the credibility of US/Israeli military threats and give Iran a huge PR victory, and they could fairly easily cause both the US and Israel to bleed if/when they retaliate with both conventional and terror attacks. International support for an air strike that would cause thousands of collateral casualties is probably at a low right now, given that economic sanctions seem to finally be biting. For these reasons and more, an air strike (or series of them, or an all-out war) offers benefits that too easily might fall well short of costs. As a matter of risk/reward, an air strike only makes sense for a very paranoid Israel. Israel has good reason to be paranoid, but they can't pull this off alone, and the US won't ever share their full paranoia.

So what do you do if you want to incapacitate a bunch of bomb-proof structures? And what if you'd really like to be able to deny culpability at least enough to give the Iranians a face-saving way to not start a regional war? We've already seen this occur: Stuxnet. But that computer virus only delayed matters. No doubt the US and Israel are working on new and better cyber-attacks but I'm not predicting a massive one in lieu of bombs.

What's Stuxnet-like in some ways but offers greater certainty of huge long-lasting damage? Answer: commando attacks. No matter how bomb-proof you make a structure and how deep you dig, there's got to be a way to get people and equipment in and out. The US and Israel have some very competent special forces. We also, I presume, have some special weapons/methods that would make incapacitating a bunch of guards easier than it might otherwise seem. Once inside the facilities we can both wreck the equipment and/or, via use of dirty bombs or chemicals or something, make re-entry impossible.

Entry with minimal casualties would also be facilitated, presumably, by agents who have previously infiltrated the nuclear facilities as guards or whatever. I assume Israel has been working assiduously at this for many years, and Iran is not a closed society.

Why do politicians and generals talk openly about air strikes and make threats of imminent action? Certainly not because they intend to actually launch air strikes. If you intend to launch an air strike, you shut the F up and quietly make your preparations so as not to alarm the enemy and put them on alert. Why don't politicians and generals ever talk about commando raids? By now you should be able to answer that yourself!
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Post 25 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm

Purple wrote:We also, I presume, have some special weapons/methods that would make incapacitating a bunch of guards easier than it might otherwise seem.

For instance, Boeing just successfully tested a microwave-generating missile that can incapacitate electronic systems without shedding blood. STORY -- This isn't designed to incapacitate guards per sé, but it is an example along the same lines -- an outside-the-box tool to help us penetrate the Iranian facilities. Imagine, for instance, if we could electronically deaden a large facility just as our black helicopters were approaching. Clearly that would make the job of penetrating the facility easier. For anti-personnel application, consider sonic weapons.

My point is this: if we and/or Israel have developed certain weapons that would be useful in a very large commando raid, but against which countermeasures/prophylaxis was possible, we'd want to keep these weapons as secret as possible and reserve their first use for an extremely important operation. Destroying Iran's nuclear infrastructure almost certainly qualifies as the sort of goal for which we'd sacrifice first-time-use advantages.

In any case, my fingers are crossed! :grin:
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Post 05 Nov 2012, 7:06 am

http://www.businessinsider.com/an-israe ... on-2012-11

An interesting simulation. Compare the Israeli conclusion in the 1st 3/4ths of the article with an Iranian view in the final 1/4th.
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Post 05 Nov 2012, 7:14 am

The Israeli conclusion based on a RPG in which all players were Israeli? Not worth a lot, frankly.

Sure, the rest of the world would want to calm things down, but I'm not sure how that would stop immeidate retaliation, or working through proxies.
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Post 05 Nov 2012, 12:55 pm

danivon wrote:The Israeli conclusion based on a RPG in which all players were Israeli? Not worth a lot, frankly.

Sure, the rest of the world would want to calm things down, but I'm not sure how that would stop immeidate retaliation, or working through proxies.


They asked Ahmadinejad to participate but he declined.
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Post 05 Nov 2012, 1:12 pm

Mate, I'd be just as skeptical of a similar role-play session carried out by any one 'side' trying to emulate what the others would do. Not just in international relations, but in all kinds of spheres.
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Post 05 Nov 2012, 1:30 pm

I'm sure the Israelis were skeptical about the exercise as well. But that doesn't mean it does not inform their view. Of course it's complicated; it makes sense to run whatever simulations you can to try to predict what would happen. Those simulations should be both political as well as military. You always try to clear the fog of war and the fog of diplomacy, but alas, you never can. I'm sure there was all sorts of confidential info in this thing so that they were restricted in asking other countries to participate.

This exercise seemed to conclude that Iran wouldn't respond in a material way. That's what happened with Iraq and Syria, but those are different situations. I do think it is a possible scenario, although perhaps an unlikely one. It's easier for the Israelis to predict the EU, or US response than the Iranian approach.

Then again, the information being made public may just be about psych ops.
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Post 11 Nov 2012, 7:14 am

new developments:

http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News ... ?id=291295
According to The Times, western defense experts discovered Iran's Fordow nuclear site is hidden deeper underground than previously estimated and therefore safe from conventional airstrikes.

The Times report, quoting Western defense experts, added that due to the "upgraded" progress of Iranian enrichment, Israel has to change their tactics to prevent a loss of up to 20% of its planes from a conventional air strike.

Defense experts claim Israel have two options, to either deploy special forces on the ground, or use ballistic missiles with tactical nuclear warheads,
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Post 11 Nov 2012, 9:14 am

I am not sure why Israel had been out in front on using a military option. President Obama has said he will not let Iran get a nuclear weapon. Yet Israel's strategy appears to be to (subtly) put public pressure on the US to use a military option sooner rather than later to take Iran's nuclear facilities out. If Israel wanted to do so itself it could remain silent, hope the sanctions work, and if they don't, Israel could act (if the US does not) The problem with Israel being out front on this issue is that they may be increasing a chance of a war with Iran. At this point, if the US takes the facilities out Iran can plausibly make the case Israel goaded the US into doing it and therefore have support in the middle-east for retaliation against Israel. Whereas, if Israel had let the US take the lead Iran would feel reluctant to challenge US military power and Iran would have a harder time justifying an attack on Israel. I understand Israel does not trust the US to act without a little prodding, but their approach may back-fire
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Post 11 Nov 2012, 10:46 am

I think you are missing a few important dynamics. The first is that if the US attacks Iran, the odds are that Iran would try to bring Israel in to the fight anyway. Recall that when the US liberated Kuwait from Iraq, the Iraqis fired at Israel and caused a few Israeli deaths in the process. The Israelis restrained themselves in deference to the US. But Iraq's strategy was to bring Israel into the war. Iran would do the same.

Also, the Israelis cannot just hope that the sanctions work because without Israel ratcheting up the pressure, the sanctions stay weak. It is not until the Israelis threaten action that the US and Europe get sufficiently serious. We have sufficiently strong sanctions for the first time now, but for them to be successful, they need to be stronger. Better jaw jaw than war war.

The other point is that Israel is a democracy and there are mixed feelings on the issue. For that reason it has become public as the politicians try to obtain support for their positions from the population and other members of the government.
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Post 13 Nov 2012, 10:06 am

Let's assume Israel had kept silent and the US had attacked iran's facilities, what would Iran do? Would they directly challenge US power or would they rather bide their time and strike back through terrorism? And if they did not attack the US (I agree with you if they retaliated directly against the US they would try to involve Israel like Hussein did in 1990) would they attack Israel, particularly if there was not a lot of enthusiasm from other middle-eastern governments? Actually, I suspect they would anyway, but the intensity of the response might be different
And I realize that Israel might calculate that it had to take whatever risks were associated with being public about taking out Iran's nuclear facilities in order to put pressure on the US and europe with regard to sanctions and with the US with regard to taking out facilities. I do think that there are risks with Israel being seen publicly as the main driver behind taking out Iran's nuclear facilities

As for the fact that Israel is a democracy and therefore this issue comes up as a domestic political issue in Israel, I don't recall that being the case when Israel attacked Iraq's nuclear facilities in the early 1980s. Why was there no public discussion with regard to Iraq but there is with regard to Iran?
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Post 13 Nov 2012, 11:58 am

And I realize that Israel might calculate that it had to take whatever risks were associated with being public about taking out Iran's nuclear facilities in order to put pressure on the US and europe with regard to sanctions and with the US with regard to taking out facilities.

Agreed

I do think that there are risks with Israel being seen publicly as the main driver behind taking out Iran's nuclear facilities


There are always risks in any course of action. Of all people, the Israelis have best learned that it's better to be impolite than dead.

Why was there no public discussion with regard to Iraq but there is with regard to Iran?


My sense of Iraq is that it was a much smaller operation and they were at a much earlier stage of development. The Isarelis were confident they could do it on their own, and Iraq was preoccupied with its war with Iran.

On Iraq per Wikipedia:
In Israel, discussions on which strategy to adopt in response to the Iraqi reactor development were taking place as early as Yitzhak Rabin's first term in office (1974–1977).[35] Reportedly, planning and training for the operation began during this time.[35] After Menachem Begin became Prime Minister in 1977 the preparations intensified; Begin authorized the building of a full-scale model of the Iraqi reactor which Israeli pilots could practice bombing.[36] Three Israeli pilots died in accidents while training for the mission.[37]

Israel's Foreign Minister Moshe Dayan initiated diplomatic negotiations with France, Italy—Israel maintained that some Italian firms acted as suppliers and sub-contractors—and the United States over the matter, but failed to obtain assurances that the reactor program would be halted, and was not able to convince the French governments of Valéry Giscard d'Estaing and François Mitterrand to cease aiding the Iraqi nuclear program.[38] Saddam Hussein consistently maintained that Osirak was intended for peaceful purposes.[39] Begin considered the diplomatic options fruitless, and worried that prolonging the decision to attack would lead to a fatal inability to act in response to the perceived threat.[16] According to Karl P. Mueller, in the spring of 1979, Begin had reached the conclusion that an anticipatory attack was necessary.[40]

Anthony Cordesman writes that Israel conducted a series of clandestine operations to halt construction or destroy the reactor.[41] In April 1979, Israeli agents in France allegedly planted a bomb that destroyed the reactor's first set of core structures while they were awaiting shipment to Iraq.[41] In June 1980, Israeli agents are said to have assassinated Yehia El-Mashad, an Egyptian atomic scientist working on the Iraqi nuclear program.[42][43] It has also been claimed that Israel bombed several of the French and Italian companies it suspected of working on the project, and sent threatening letters to top officials and technicians.[41][43][44] ...


The decision to go through with the operation was hotly contested within Begin's government.[53] Ariel Sharon, a member of the Security Cabinet, later said that he was among those who advocated bombing the reactor.[54] Dayan, Defense Minister (until late 1980) Ezer Weizman and Deputy Prime Minister Yigael Yadin were among those opposed.[40] According to Mueller, "the principal difference between the hawks and doves on this issue lay in their estimation of the likely international political costs of an air strike".[40] Shai Feldman specifies that "[those opposed] feared that the operation would derail the fragile Israeli-Egyptian peace process, fuel Arab anxieties about Israel's profile in the region, and damage Israel-French relations".[55] Begin and his supporters, including Sharon, were far less pessimistic than their opponents about the political fallout.[40] Yehoshua Saguy argued for continued efforts in trying to find a non-military solution as it would take the Iraqis five to ten years to produce the material necessary for a nuclear weapon.[53] In the end, Begin chose to order the attack based on a worst-case estimate where a weapon could be created in one to two years time.[53]

It has been claimed that Israel felt it necessary to destroy the reactor before it was loaded with nuclear fuel, in order to prevent radioactive contamination.[23] An analysis by Warren Donnelly of the United States Congressional Research Service concluded that "it would be most unlikely for an attack with conventional bombs upon the reactor when operating to have caused lethal exposures to radioactivity in Baghdad, although some people at the reactor site might receive some exposure".[56]

In October 1980, Mossad reported to Begin that the Osirak reactor would be fueled and operational by June 1981.[50] This assessment was significantly aided by reconnaissance photos supplied by the United States, specifically using the KH-11 KENNAN satellite.[37] French technicians installing the reactor later said it was scheduled to become operational only by the end of 1981.[37] Nonetheless, in October 1980, the Israeli cabinet (with Dayan absent) finally voted 10–6 in favor of launching the attack.[40]


Wow, this is interesting. After the attack:

Security Council Resolution 487[14] strongly condemned the attack as a "clear violation of the Charter of the United Nations and the norms of international conduct" and called on Israel to refrain from such attacks in the future; the Council recognised the right of Iraq to "establish programmes of technological and nuclear development" and called for Israel to join Iraq within the "IAEA safeguards regime" of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.[60] The Council also stated its consideration that Iraq was "entitled to appropriate redress for the destruction it has suffered." The United States voted for the resolution and suspended the delivery of four F-16 aircraft to Israel


That would be the peacenik Reagan. In hindsight given the 1st Gulf War it is fortunate that the Israelis did what they did. But Iran is a much tougher operation so they are being more cautious and trying to get US help, and/or hoping that sanctions will work.
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Post 14 Nov 2012, 3:10 pm

http://youtu.be/P6U2ZQ0EhN4
Same day footage of surgical strike in Gaza of Ahmed Jabari

Is that weird for the IDF to release footage the same day or is it just part of living in a 2012 transparent world?
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Post 14 Nov 2012, 5:11 pm

wow ... both weird and part of living in 2012. I hope it makes it harder to recruit his replacement.