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Post 07 Nov 2011, 9:31 am

I'm a farm kid. I got it. City slickers... :no: :no: :no:
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Post 07 Nov 2011, 11:09 am

As a big-town kid I got it, and didn' t even think it could be seen as odd until RJ asked.
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Post 07 Nov 2011, 4:14 pm

I'm really glad Geo had a good experience. I'm also very happy he didn't decide to camp there.

Does anyone think that a permanent encampment to "protest" is a productive idea? I don't. If you want to protest, protest your heart out, then go home and go to work. When you get off work, organize and campaign and (eventually) vote. That's the system. Occupying an area is not going to lead to a good outcome. Witness Oakland.

And, it's not limited to the Left Coast. How about Geo's stomping grounds?

The threat of rape is very real here — for women and men.

Sitting in the McDonald’s just moments after Bezabeh was hauled off in cuffs, Lauren DiGioia, 26, tells me about how she became one of the growing number of victims on her very first night in the park. …

DiGioia, who is from Clifton, NJ, was shocked to see her alleged attacker’s image in The Post about a week later — and she identified him to the police. She is now offering counsel to other victims, as new ones crop up every day.

“I just talked to two gentlemen who were raped last night, and they don’t want to press charges because [authorities] wanted to take them in an ambulance and . . . do a rape kit,” she said. She passed on their account to the security force, while encouraging them to press charges.

“There was another girl raped by the same man,” she said from a table in the McDonald’s, which has become the headquarters of the revolution. . .

I spend the rest of the night awake against the wall of a tent built for four — but packed with six.

My bunkmates include an anarchist, a sexual-assault victim, two security-force members, a girl dressed like the devil and her kitten — the “Anarkitty.”

“We are a microcosm of all of society’s defects and the failing economy,” DiGioia said. “Just because we’re here under a microscope, everybody’s going to come and throw up their arms and say we have to shut this place down.”


How about Boston?

BOSTON (CBS) – Three people arrested Thursday night inside the Occupy Boston camp have been charged with dealing crack cocaine.

WBZ NewsRadio 1030’s Carl Stevens, who spent the night at the camp a few weeks ago, talked to a man who spends most nights at Occupy Boston. He said things have gone downhill.

“Things have changed drastically. It seems to be deteriorating,” the man told Carl. “A lot of drug use, alcohol use, people getting into fights… It’s deteriorating pretty quick.”


If it ever was benign, it's not now.
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Post 07 Nov 2011, 4:44 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:Does anyone think that a permanent encampment to "protest" is a productive idea?
It can be. I recall protests against development of green space where permanent encampment was the whole point - if people left, the bulldozers would go in. I recall the Greenham Common camps (women only), which were more symbolic than effective, but weren't really a problem.

A less positive example is the Bonus Army. They eventually achieved their aims, but there was violence (two protesters were shot after cornering some cops, and later McArthur moved in tanks and disobeyed Presidential orders to continue the advance).

As I've said, I'm not sure that the means of Occupy is really the best way, because it's fraught with issues such as unsavoury types infiltrating the protest and the association with any and all bad behaviour, as well as it pretty much provoking reaction from those in power which can escalate to violence.

But as a tactic it's not always a disaster.
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Post 07 Nov 2011, 6:00 pm

steve
Does anyone think that a permanent encampment to "protest" is a productive idea?


No. It would be just as useful at keeping the major premise top of mind by scheduling a march every two weeks or so... And the crowd would be larger because working people could join...
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Post 09 Nov 2011, 10:45 am

The heroes of the revolution, striking a blow against the bourgeoisie:

A business owner near the Occupy Wall Street encampment claims she has been repeatedly harassed and threatened with bodily harm by protesters after she and her employees refused to give in to their outlandish demands.

“I’ve been told, ‘Watch your back!’ 10 times,” Stacey Tzortzatos, owner of Panini & Co. Breads, located across from Zuccotti Park, told The Post yesterday.

She and her employees are terrified by the constant threats, which she said began after she demanded the protesters stop using her shop’s restroom as a place to bathe every day.

The final straw came about two weeks ago, when the demonstrators broke a bathroom sink, flooding the shop, and clogged the toilet — setting her back $3,000 in damages.

“I have the police in here 10 times a day, [and] I’m the bouncer. I’ve been called the spawn of the devil. “It’s unbelievable what goes on in here every day, ” Tzortzatos said.

And on Friday, she said, a crazed squatter burst into the shop and demanded that workers fill a 10-gallon container of water.

When they refused, “he banged it on the ground and started yelling” and threatened the staff, she said. “He said he was entitled to have it for free.” . . .

Tzortzatos said the unsafe conditions begin at around 5 p.m. every day, when “they come from the park drunk, under the influence of something.

“They use one of our doorways as a bathroom, and we have to scrub it down every morning.

“I’ve had people come in here and yell, ‘Boycott! Boycott!’

“They unplugged my ATM machine and plugged in their computers,” Tzortzatos said.


Awesome! That will teach that Wall Street fatcat! Oh. Wait. She is a small business owner? Well, too bad! She's worked hard and has something. Therefore, she is a rightful target of proletariat rage!

Same link, but in San Diego:

Coffee cart owner Linda Jenson and hot dog cart operators Letty and Pete Soto said they initially provided free food and drink to demonstrators, but when they stopped, the protesters became violent.

And according to one city councilman, bodily fluids were used in the attacks.

“Both carts have had items stolen, have had their covers vandalized with markings and graffiti, as well as one of the carts had urine and blood splattered on it,” said Councilman Carl DeMaio. …

In addition to the attacks, the vendors also said they recently received death threats.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure these protests will move the electorate toward the left.

Not.
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Post 16 Nov 2011, 8:52 am

So, will OSW help or hurt Democrats, particularly in light of being evicted, threatening to come back, violence, potential future violence, etc.?
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Post 19 Nov 2011, 10:15 am

You know OSW is heading for trouble when Stewart mocks them using . . . them.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-n ... et-divided

That's a lot of progress in a month:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-o ... 11/the-99-
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Post 19 Nov 2011, 11:36 am

Image

We were put back on hold, and then then told that Captain Lewis had been arrested on three charges.

“One violation of local law, and two counts of disorderly conduct including disrupting traffic and refusing to move on.”
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Post 19 Nov 2011, 3:22 pm

If the point of Occupy Wall Steet was to
1) remind everyone of the source of the financial collapse
2) remind everyone of the unequal distribution of wealth and influence
3) get people thinking about how to make the system benefit more people

Then its been succesful. Before Occupy Wall Street there was little main stream discourse about any of the issues above. And the revisionists were busy attempting to paint the histroy of the collapse with a different story...Today, inequality is generally understood and the feeling that most have that they havn't gotten anywhere personnally has both a group identification and a popular rationale.
The fact that OWS followed Tea Party, with many of the same ratioanlizations but different main antagonists is very important. It actually gives almost everyone something to agree on. People have been screwed over the last while (times vary...OWS 30 years. TP ?)
Its now just a debate about whether govenrment can help or is the cause. And whether its a question of supporting the status quo of supporting corporatism and the wealthy elites...
No one will coopt OWS because of the messy way its ending, and because there's no real organization. But in a way that actually makes it easier for politicians to appeal to the sentiment without the label.
And since TP got into congress...it hasn't proved its point. So OWS has had a defintie impact. remains to be seen what it means in the politcal battles.
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Post 19 Nov 2011, 4:06 pm

If the purpose of the OWS was to make cookies and provide them to the Boy Scouts then it has been unsuccessful. My point is your premise is based upon one big IF. Let's look at the goals some in the OWS have published.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/

(If there is another published list that can be found, I would love to see the link to that as well)

Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.
Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.
Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.
Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.
Create a single-payer, universal health care system.
Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.
Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.
Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.
Allow workers to elect their supervisors.
Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.
Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.
Ban the private ownership of land.
Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.
Reduce the age of majority to 16.
Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.
Release all political prisoners immediately.
Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Abolish the debt limit.
Ban private gun ownership.
Strengthen the separation of church and state.
Immediate debt forgiveness for all.
End the 'War on Drugs'.


By my tally it is 0-24 in meeting their demands. If there is a list that RickyP has, let's score that as well.

Is that what you call successful? 0-24 doesn't meet my criteria for a passing grade.
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Post 20 Nov 2011, 1:02 am

"This is not an official list of demands. The user "bchang1987" who posted this speaks only for themself, not the movement."
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Post 20 Nov 2011, 8:47 am

As I said to RickyP, please post a list yourself, and we can grade it as well. The movement is nothing but anarchy.
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Post 20 Nov 2011, 12:21 pm

If the movement was about anarchy then rand paul and grover Norquist would be huge fans... they of the limited to no government philosophy.
The movement is called occupy wall street. Wall street is the major target for a reason. The protestors want to focus the blame for the 08 financial disaster squarely on the major culprits. and they want to focus political discsuion on inequality.
These protests are a repeat of the unrest that has ocurred every time wealth inequality reached the current levels. its not a new phenomenon. What's new is the media and comunications enviroment its happening within. By the way, a great movie to see about the crash "Margin Call".Saw it last night, and although I know few of you actually make it down to the cineplex I highly recommend it just for the story and acting...
It may be getting smallish viewing in theatres right now, but it has an 87% positive Rotten Tomatoe Index and will be a shoe in for Oscar nods to Kevin Spacey and Jeremy Irons. "Speak to me like I'm a small child or a golden retreiver".
With Oscar acclaim it'll get all kinds of at home viewing... The point is as we were leaving we overheard "Now I feel like joining the Occupy portestors...' from 3 different viewers.
Many of the hard core protestors might not be genuinely sympathetic characters... But the rage creating events behind their cause is deeply emotive.

Meanwhile the battle going on right now is the push back on the revisionists.. In the WP today:
Take for example New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s statement that it was Congress that forced banks to make ill-advised loans to people who could not afford them and defaulted in large numbers. He and others claim that caused the crisis. Others have suggested these were to blame: the home mortgage interest deduction, the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, the 1994 Housing and Urban Development memo, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) and homeownership targets set by both the Clinton and Bush administrations.

When an economy booms or busts, money gets misspent, assets rise in prices, fortunes are made. Out of all that comes a set of easy-to-discern facts.

Here are key things we know based on data. Together, they present a series of tough hurdles for the big lie proponents.
•The boom and bust was global. Proponents of the Big Lie ignore the worldwide nature of the housing boom and bust.
A McKinsey Global Institute report noted “from 2000 through 2007, a remarkable run-up in global home prices occurred.” It is highly unlikely that a simultaneous boom and bust everywhere else in the world was caused by one set of factors (ultra-low rates, securitized AAA-rated subprime, derivatives) but had a different set of causes in the United States. Indeed, this might be the biggest obstacle to pushing the false narrative. How did U.S. regulations against redlining in inner cities also cause a boom in Spain, Ireland and Australia? How can we explain the boom occurring in countries that do not have a tax deduction for mortgage interest or government-sponsored enterprises? And why, after nearly a century of mortgage interest deduction in the United States, did it suddenly cause a crisis?

These questions show why proximity and statistical validity are so important. Let’s get more specific.The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 is a favorite boogeyman for some, despite the numbers that so easily disprove it as a cause.It is a statistical invalid argument, as the data show.

For example, if the CRA was to blame, the housing boom would have been in CRA regions; it would have made places such as Harlem and South Philly and Compton and inner Washington the primary locales of the run up and collapse. Further, the default rates in these areas should have been worse than other regions.

What occurred was the exact opposite: The suburbs boomed and busted and went into foreclosure in much greater numbers than inner cities. The tiny suburbs and exurbs of South Florida and California and Las Vegas and Arizona were the big boomtowns, not the low-income regions. The redlined areas the CRA address missed much of the boom; places that busted had nothing to do with the CRA
The market share of financial institutions that were subject to the CRA has steadily declined since the legislation was passed in 1977. As noted by Abromowitz & Min, CRA-regulated institutions, primarily banks and thrifts, accounted for only 28 percent of all mortgages originated in 2006.

•Nonbank mortgage underwriting exploded from 2001 to 2007, along with the private label securitization market, which eclipsed Fannie and Freddie during the boom. Check the mortgage origination data: The vast majority of subprime mortgages — the loans at the heart of the global crisis — were underwritten by unregulated private firms. These were lenders who sold the bulk of their mortgages to Wall Street, not to Fannie or Freddie. Indeed, these firms had no deposits, so they were not under the jurisdiction of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp or the Office of Thrift Supervision. The relative market share of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac dropped from a high of 57 percent of all new mortgage originations in 2003, down to 37 percent as the bubble was developing in 2005-06.

•Private lenders not subject to congressional regulations collapsed lending standards. Taking up that extra share were nonbanks selling mortgages elsewhere, not to the GSEs. Conforming mortgages had rules that were less profitable than the newfangled loans. Private securitizers — competitors of Fannie and Freddie — grew from 10 percent of the market in 2002 to nearly 40 percent in 2006. As a percentage of all mortgage-backed securities, private securitization grew from 23 percent in 2003 to 56 percent in 2006

These firms had business models that could be called “Lend-in-order-to-sell-to-Wall-Street-securitizers.” They offered all manner of nontraditional mortgages — the 2/28 adjustable rate mortgages, piggy-back loans, negative amortization loans. These defaulted in huge numbers, far more than the regulated mortgage writers did.

Consider a study by McClatchy: It found that more than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending. These private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year. And McClatchy found that out of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006, only one was subject to the usual mortgage laws and regulations.

A 2008 analysis found that the nonbank underwriters made more than 12 million subprime mortgages with a value of nearly $2 trillion. The lenders who made these were exempt from federal regulations.

A study by the Federal Reserve shows that more than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions. The study found that the government-sponsored enterprises were concerned with the loss of market share to these private lenders — Fannie and Freddie were chasing profits, not trying to meet low-income lending goals.

Beyond the overwhelming data that private lenders made the bulk of the subprime loans to low-income borrowers, we still have the proximate cause issue. If we cannot blame housing policies from the 1930s or mortgage tax deductibility from even before that, then what else can we blame? Mass consumerism? Incessant advertising? The post-World War II suburban automobile culture? MTV’s “Cribs”? Just how attenuated must a factor be before fair-minded people are willing to eliminate it as a prime cause?

I recognize all of the above as merely background noise, the wallpaper of our culture. To blame the housing collapse that began in 2006, a recession dated to December 2007 and a market collapse in 2008-09 on policies of the early 20th century is to blame everything — and nothing
.

Ritholtz is chief executive of FusionIQ, a quantitative research firm. He is the author of “Bailout Nation” and runs a finance blog, the Big Picture.
source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/examining-the-big-lie-how-the-facts-of-the-economic-crisis-stack-up/2011/11/16/gIQA7G23cN_story.html
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Post 20 Nov 2011, 1:23 pm

The problem ricky with the above is it doesn't ask what was the underlying cause? Absent the Government requiring banks to lend to low income families that wouldn't have otherwise gotten loans, would the rest of it have happened?

without Government encouraged lending would there be lessen regulations to allow said lending

Without the lessend regulations would the banks have been able to do the other questionable lending.

Without the other questionable lending would the CDS's have happened and spread around the globe as investment vehicles?

Without the CDS's would there have been the overall global collapse?