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Post 26 Mar 2015, 6:36 pm

rickyp wrote:ray
You seem to have ignored the acknowledged history that


I have, because i was offering counter point to your position.
I acknowledge everything you list here. Its all part of the recipe for the current disaster.
well with the exception of this:

G. Israel is the only country who has ever offered the Palestinians a state (except the UN who never delivered), and that offer has been declined


I think that this is a broad statement that distorts the negotiations and politics somewhat. But is still has some validity....

The point is that you can't excuse the continued and apparently now permanent occupation of the West Bank by pointing to the current chaos in the middle east. The chaos doesn't justify a continued occupation, or annexation.


I agree that the Israeli's should be more conciliatory and work towards a 2-state solution.
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Post 29 Mar 2015, 2:38 pm

http://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-jo ... s-to-west/

Amir Hossein Motaghi tells Iranian opposition TV that US is ‘mainly there to speak on Iran’s behalf with other P5+1 members’
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 12:58 am

Well, then it must be true.

Sigh
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 2:01 am

danivon wrote:Well, then it must be true.

Sigh


Do you mean true that he said it, or true that it is a fair reflection of what is going on?

In either case, seems like news to me.

I can't wait till the terms of the deal are released so you can figure out whether you are in favor of it. Is there a betting line on your view? :laugh:
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 2:15 am

Ray Jay wrote:
danivon wrote:Well, then it must be true.

Sigh


Do you mean true that he said it, or true that it is a fair reflection of what is going on?

In either case, seems like news to me.
It doesn't seem very credible that the US is trying to convince China to be softer on Iran. Or the EU nations, frankly.

I can't wait till the terms of the deal are released so you can figure out whether you are in favor of it. Is there a betting line on your view? :laugh:
I will be interested to see what they are. And how, whatever they are, if indeed a deal is agreed, some people will be dogmatically opposed to them.
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 2:22 am

danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:
danivon wrote:Well, then it must be true.

Sigh


Do you mean true that he said it, or true that it is a fair reflection of what is going on?

In either case, seems like news to me.
It doesn't seem very credible that the US is trying to convince China to be softer on Iran. Or the EU nations, frankly. .


France and England yes; Russia and China, no.

I can't wait till the terms of the deal are released so you can figure out whether you are in favor of it. Is there a betting line on your view? :laugh:
I will be interested to see what they are. And how, whatever they are, if indeed a deal is agreed, some people will be dogmatically opposed to them.


Interesting that you left off that others will be dogmatically in favor of it ...
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 2:51 am

Ray Jay wrote:
danivon wrote:
Ray Jay wrote:
danivon wrote:Well, then it must be true.

Sigh


Do you mean true that he said it, or true that it is a fair reflection of what is going on?

In either case, seems like news to me.
It doesn't seem very credible that the US is trying to convince China to be softer on Iran. Or the EU nations, frankly. .


France and England yes; Russia and China, no.
France is indeed dead set against allowing enrichment. I'm not really all that clear on the UK's position (although yesterday our Foreign Minister was keen to have a deal agreed) or that of Germany (the +1 only because they are not permanent members of the UNSC).

The three EU nations have tended to have similar positions to each other and the USA. Mind you, the P5+1 talks with Iran started back in 2006, and most of the Western countries have had a change of government since then (USA in 2009, UK in 2010, France in 2012, and even though Merkel remained Chancellor in 2013 it was with a different coalition).

I can't wait till the terms of the deal are released so you can figure out whether you are in favor of it. Is there a betting line on your view? :laugh:
I will be interested to see what they are. And how, whatever they are, if indeed a deal is agreed, some people will be dogmatically opposed to them.


Interesting that you left off that others will be dogmatically in favor of it ...
Apart from ricky, there are none on here, but of the other extreme, I count at least three. I could be wrong on that I suppose.

If a deal meant that Iran was allowed to develop nuclear power, but stopped the path to weaponisation, and retained both the threat of sanctions and inspections (alongside of course the covert monitoring we already have), would you accept that? Barring the details, I think I could live with it, provided there were suitable punishments for breaches.
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 3:28 am

Danivon:
If a deal meant that Iran was allowed to develop nuclear power, but stopped the path to weaponisation, and retained both the threat of sanctions and inspections (alongside of course the covert monitoring we already have), would you accept that? Barring the details, I think I could live with it, provided there were suitable punishments for breaches.


It's a fair question, thanks. TBH, I don't think there's a chance that we can monitor their activity. We certainly haven't gotten it right in the past. I also see the regime as a sponsor of terrorism with innocent blood on their hands. And it's personal, not theoretical. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a deal, but it does mean they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

One question is the extent to which Obama is emotionally invested in a deal. It's plausible to me that Obama is looking at his legacy and realizes he can only do 1 or 2 more big things before he goes, if that. Opening Iran may be that big thing. Defeating ISIS may be another. That would explain the hard line reaction to Netanyahu and the intense secrecy surrounding the deal. Once Obama is emotionally invested in doing a deal, the roadblocks are just to be overcome and not considered ... Netanyahu, Boehner, France, the actual deal, nothing will get in his way.
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 3:44 am

On the contrary, we have managed to get good intelligence from Iran, and also to subvert their programme in several ways.

Now, Netanyahu will tell us Iran is two years from the bomb. But he was saying than ten years ago, so either we have managed to hold them back all that time, or he's been exaggerating a tad.

Secrecy in major international negotiations between antagonistic powers is nothing new - you get leaks and you find out a lot afterwards, but not during. And trying to keep interfering third parties from messing about at the edges is also nothing new, unfortunately.
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 6:13 am

ray
TBH, I don't think there's a chance that we can monitor their activity.


Its a helluva a lot easier to monitor their activities with a deal that includes access and inspection than without a deal.
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 12:45 pm

rickyp wrote:ray
TBH, I don't think there's a chance that we can monitor their activity.


Its a helluva a lot easier to monitor their activities with a deal that includes access and inspection than without a deal.


If they don't cooperate, it doesn't really matter.

They have a history of deception. And, their religion permits deceiving "infidels."
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 1:40 pm

fate
If they don't cooperate, it doesn't really matter.

That's true if they don't sign a deal or if they do...
However, if they have signed an agreement, and IAEA inspectors are allowed in ... then by definition they are cooperating.
The IAEA is very good at accounting for nuclear materials.

Fate
They have a history of deception. And, their religion permits deceiving "infidels."

If they don't sign a deal and don't allow inspectors access, won't they have an easier time with deception?
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Post 30 Mar 2015, 2:11 pm

rickyp wrote:The IAEA is very good at accounting for nuclear materials.


The Iranians have a very good record at hiding nuclear facilities. They're very good at deception.

If the IAEA is good at finding facilities hundreds of feet underground that the Iranians deny exist, the agreement will be valuable indeed.

What some seem to forget is we are dealing with a religiously zealous group of ayatollahs who long to bring the world to an end.

That's who Obama is cutting a deal with.
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Post 31 Mar 2015, 1:22 am

Well, I look at the whole situation as somewhat of a logical puzzle:

(1) Does Iran have a legitimate non- military purchase for developing nuclear power?
(a) large oil reserves argues against that interpretation.
(b) willingness to incur sanctions and other consequences argues against a non- military purpose where nuclear power is not really needed for energy supplies
( c) if the argument is that they are continuing with the program in spite of international pressure because they want to save face, then why didn't they anticipate the negative reaction to their nuclear program? They are not continuing with the program for a non- military purpose in spite of international pressure which they almost certainly anticipated--they are continuing with the program on spite of sanctions because it serves a vital national interest

Conclusion: Iran's reason for the program is to build nuclear bombs.

2. If they are intent in building a bomb then why would they enter into an agreement that would ostensibly stop them from building a nuclear bomb?

(a) They don't think the agreement will ultimately stop them from building a bomb
( b) We have already excluded the idea that they would have continued with the nuclear program in spite of sanctions if they did not have an intent to build a bomb.
( c) if they changed their mind due to external pressure, then why wouldn't they stop the program altogether--it would not be worth the inspections and continued international pressure.

Conclusion: They will only make an agreement that allows them to eventually build a bomb.

The inherent problem with any agreement is that Iran can choose the time and place to push the envelope of the agreement, depending on whether international pressure or focus is waning. It is almost certain Iran and the US will come to an agreement-- Iran will just try to get the best agreement they can. That is a bad strategy . A better strategy is simply to ratchet the pressure higher and higher until Iran gives in. Any agreement , even if good on its face , gives Iran an indefinite amount of time to beat it, or pick an appropriate time to violate it without consequences. The burden would be on us to maintain constant vigilance ; whereas, if we ratchet up increasing sanctions then the pressure is on Iran to change its behavior.

I am not for any agreement with Iran short of dismantling it. The fact that Netanyahu has been wrong on the time when Iran will develop the bomb is not irrelevant but Iran may just go at its own pace on developing the bomb. The fact that they are not developing the bomb at a fast pace does not mean that they are not trying to develop nuclear weapons.
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Post 31 Mar 2015, 6:30 am

I offer the following counter point Freeman. One, that I think Iran is NOT wholly committed to a nuclear weapon, but wouldn't mind one if the cost weren't too high....
However I think some of your reasoning doesn't consider the iranian side...

freeman3
1) Does Iran have a legitimate non- military purchase for developing nuclear power?
(a) large oil reserves argues against that interpretation.

Most nations with nuclear power programs have plenty of options for power as well. That doesn't stop them from using the option of nuclear power. Japan or Canada could produce nuclear weapons in 6 months. Germany too.
Furthermore Iran has been cut off from a supply of nuclear isotopes for medical reasons. A nuclear power industry would provide that option. And provide them an exportable product. Plus, oil reserves will serve as an exportable product as well.
Plus, the use of oil is contributing to global warming, which in Iran is leading to excessive drought. The long term view from some Iranians is that global warming is a bad thing... So you have a couple of legitimate reason to produce energy as an alternative to oil....

Freeman3
(b) willingness to incur sanctions and other consequences argues against a non- military purpose where nuclear power is not really needed for energy supplies

washington post http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... ed-to-ask/

The first explanation is that the nuclear program has huge symbolic importance for Iran. You have to understand that Iran's national pride runs deep, and with good reason: It has been an active center of cultural, scientific, religious and political thought for many centuries. It's also still upset, again with reason, about decades of Western interference during the 19th and 20th centuries. The nuclear program is a way in which Iran affirms, to itself and to the world, that it is an advanced and sovereign nation. It's also a way of defying what it sees as continued Western efforts to control, exploit or weaken Iran.
That's what Iranian leaders mean when they talk about the nuclear program as a point of "national dignity," as they often do.
The second explanation is much more straightforward, but it's not one that Iranian leaders acknowledge: defense. If Iran is pursuing some sort of nuclear weapons capability, then logically this would be at least partially for defensive reasons. Most analysts believe that Iran would want a nuclear weapon to deter perceived foreign threats. Consider Tehran's view for a moment: Israeli and American leaders have been talking for years about bombing Iran or invading it outright. The Bush administration named Iran part of its "axis of evil," alongside Iraq, which it invaded months later.
Iranian leaders appear to sincerely believe that the United States is bent on their government's destruction. For example, the United States helped Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in his brutal, years-long war against Iran, in which he killed thousands of Iranians, including with chemical weapons. You hear Iranians frequently mention Iran Air flight 655, a civilian airliner that the U.S. military accidentally shot down in 1988, killing 290 civilians. In Iran, this is still frequently viewed as deliberate. Imagine you're an Iranian leader seeing all this. You might want a nuclear deterrent.


freeman3
( c) if the argument is that they are continuing with the program in spite of international pressure because they want to save face, then why didn't they anticipate the negative reaction to their nuclear program? They are not continuing with the program for a non- military purpose in spite of international pressure which they almost certainly anticipated--they are continuing with the program on spite of sanctions because it serves a vital national interest

from foreign policy
Israel's regional nuclear monopoly, which has proved remarkably durable for the past four decades, has long fueled instability in the Middle East. In no other region of the world does a lone, unchecked nuclear state exist. It is Israel's nuclear arsenal, not Iran's desire for one, that has contributed most to the current crisis. Power, after all, begs to be balanced. What is surprising about the Israeli case is that it has taken so long for a potential balancer to emerge.

Of course, it is easy to understand why Israel wants to remain the sole nuclear power in the region and why it is willing to use force to secure that status. In 1981, Israel bombed Iraq to prevent a challenge to its nuclear monopoly. It did the same to Syria in 2007 and is now considering similar action against Iran. But the very acts that have allowed Israel to maintain its nuclear edge in the short term have prolonged an imbalance that is unsustainable in the long term. Israel's proven ability to strike potential nuclear rivals with impunity has inevitably made its enemies anxious to develop the means to prevent Israel from doing so again. In this way, the current tensions are best viewed not as the early stages of a relatively recent Iranian nuclear crisis but rather as the final stages of a decades-long Middle East nuclear crisis that will end only when a balance of military power is restored.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... t-the-bomb

So in part, if Iran wants a nuclear deterrent becasue they feel isolated and threatened, particularly by the Israelis nuclear weapon.... is deterence of Israelis use of a nuke not a legitimate reason to have one? (Try and see it from the Iranians view point).
A strategy that includes bringing Iran back into the International world, ending its isolation is a part of the solution. Further sanctions and isolation will drive it to build nukes by increasing the paranoia that is a part of their experience with the West.