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- freeman3
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22 Dec 2014, 10:18 pm
Well, I did not want to read a 700 page book on economics but a 40 page review I could do...
http://cdn.harvardlawreview.org/wp-cont ... Grewal.pdfThe book documents a regularity in capitalism that capital grows at a faster rate than economic growth. Huh? The books documents that there was a temporary lull from the mid-20th century due to redistribution policies and economic growth but that it started to revert back to normal in the 1970s. Those who have money will see it grow at a significantly faster rate than the economy, pretty much inevitably unless the government does something about it (e.g. higher tax rates, empowering unions, etc.). It is one thing to say that those with higher incomes make them due to greater skill, talent, hard work, etc.; is quite another to say that their wealth will grow at a much higher rate than economic growth pursuant to an economic law (or at least observed regularity).
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- freeman3
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23 Dec 2014, 2:31 pm
One more point: it would seem reasonable for government to take steps to align capital growth with economic growth (why should capital grow overall at a rate higher than the overall wealth of a society?), but of course any such policies would have other effects on the economy (perhaps reducing the total economic pie). For a long time liberals have struggled to counter the argument by conservatives that a person should be able to earn as much as he wants within the rules and he should not be subject to taxation rates much higher than everyone else. But we may now have the beginning of a good counter-argument.
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- danivon
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23 Dec 2014, 3:17 pm
It's fairly clear why it grows at a faster rate, to me.
The means by which capital is invested is into enterprises that employ people. But they do so also to maximise profits. You maximise profits by paying the lowest rate you can get. So wages (absent some upwards pressure) will not grow as fast as the per capita economy. As the bulk of people are on those wages, and have little in the way of capital, it is balanced out by higher returns on capital.
Of course, as Marx also theorised this, it's a forbidden concept, even if evidence points to it being true.
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- freeman3
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23 Dec 2014, 3:50 pm
Of course I agree with that, after all the return in the stock market (growth plus dividends) since 1932 is 11%. But the idea with those with capital will do much better not necessarily due to skill or talent or ingenuity but to the inherent design of the system, well, I'm not sure that is an idea that has been successfully transmitted to the public. At least not recently. Liberal/Labor/Socialist ideas have been beaten back and we see this rising inequality. We need an explanation of what causes this inequality and an explanation that has moral significance. Yes, there was Marx's labor theory of value, but Communism has been discredited. So how do you convince the public that maybe billionaires should not control 1.5% of the world's wealth? Well, maybe by starting to show that the game is (in some fundamental sense) rigged in their favor. And the worst thing is that as advanced economies mature and growth gets stagnant...the return on capital relative to growth gets greater and inequality gets worse. The simple idea that capital growth=economic growth (or at least the gap should be closed) should be a societal goal could have persuasive power.
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- danivon
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23 Dec 2014, 4:10 pm
The thing about declaring all Marx bunk because Communism failed is that it conflates his solution/successor to Capitalism with his analysis of it.
We can debate the extent to which Communism has really be tried, or if it even can be. And we can also look at alternatives such as socialism/social democracy/mixed economies.
But I was not referring to the Labour Theory of Value, but to the concept of Capital Accumulation, which is not just Marxist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_accumulationBut Marx does have a point:
According to Marx, capital has the tendency for concentration and centralization in the hands of richest capitalists. Marx explains:
"It is concentration of capitals already formed, destruction of their individual independence, expropriation of capitalist by capitalist, transformation of many small into few large capitals.... Capital grows in one place to a huge mass in a single hand, because it has in another place been lost by many.... The battle of competition is fought by cheapening of commodities. The cheapness of commodities demands, caeteris paribus, on the productiveness of labour, and this again on the scale of production. Therefore, the larger capitals beat the smaller. It will further be remembered that, with the development of the capitalist mode of production, there is an increase in the minimum amount of individual capital necessary to carry on a business under its normal conditions. The smaller capitals, therefore, crowd into spheres of production which Modern Industry has only sporadically or incompletely got hold of. Here competition rages.... It always ends in the ruin of many small capitalists, whose capitals partly pass into the hands of their conquerors, partly vanish."
His main errors are in that he thought capitalism was doomed to fail, and that it would always lead to monopoly and scleroticism. That's not the case, but there is some comparison in the analysis with the reality that capital increases in value faster than overall economies, unless somehow countered.
Currenlty it is estimated that 85 people have the same amount of wealth as the poorest half of all humanity combined.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... -the-world
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- freeman3
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23 Dec 2014, 4:33 pm
I don't dispute that Marx had some powerful insights. But his followers did not do so well in applying his philosophical system to the real world (kind of a typical problem with philosophers...some of their insights are profound but be wary of applying their philosophical system as a whole because there is much that is wrong as well as right) Anyway, I was not really assessing whether his ideas still carried explanatory power, but whether any idea with his stamp would be well-received in the West. Liberals have been lagging in the contest of ideas with conservatives in recent decades; perhaps I am optimistically seeing something here with Pikkety.
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- danivon
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23 Dec 2014, 4:34 pm
But I had not read the review yet. Am going through it now. An excerpt that is of interest:
Combining Glyn and Streeck with Piketty helps us to identify where the fault lines of future political contests will lie: in broad fights over debt, taxation, and public spending as the fiftieth through ninetieth percentiles in the income and wealth tables lose ground to the top 10%, and in more specific conflicts as professionals and small businesspeople in the top 10% lose ground to the 1% and yet smaller fractions. They also suggest that these problems ultimately emerge from differential power — the ability of some groups rather than others to control the state. Finally, these analyses help clarify that what is exceptional about the trente glorieuses (1940s-1970s) must be understood in a political dimension
There does seem in places to be a growing concern that the middle classes are stumbling. And yes, we will continue to debate the balance of debt, taxation and spending.
Last edited by
danivon on 23 Dec 2014, 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- danivon
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23 Dec 2014, 4:42 pm
freeman3 wrote:I don't dispute that Marx had some powerful insights. But his followers did not do so well in applying his philosophical system to the real world (kind of a typical problem with philosophers...some of their insights are profound but be wary of applying their philosophical system as a whole because there is much that is wrong as well as right)
Yes, but Marxist economists have done better, because they are a bit closer to reality.
Anyway, I was not really assessing whether his ideas still carried explanatory power, but whether any idea with his stamp would be well-received in the West. Liberals have been lagging in the contest of ideas with conservatives in recent decades; perhaps I am optimistically seeing something here with Pikkety.
Perhaps. Much of 'liberal' economics has not been Marxist really - Keynes certainly wasn't a Marxist, and neither were Ricardo/Mill/Say who he was opposing as 'classical economists'.
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- rickyp
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24 Dec 2014, 7:43 am
Combining Glyn and Streeck with Piketty helps us to identify where the fault lines of future political contests will lie: in broad fights over debt, taxation, and public spending as the fiftieth through ninetieth percentiles in the income and wealth tables lose ground to the top 10%, and in more specific conflicts as professionals and small businesspeople in the top 10% lose ground to the 1% and yet smaller fractions. They also suggest that these problems ultimately emerge from differential power — the ability of some groups rather than others to control the state. Finally, these analyses help clarify that what is exceptional about the trente glorieuses (1940s-1970s) must be understood in a political dimension
danivon
There does seem in places to be a growing concern that the middle classes are stumbling. And yes, we will continue to debate the balance of debt, taxation and spending
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Comparing western nations middle class wealth and the state policies that exist that improve the lives of the lower and middle class, at the expense of the accumulation of welath in a few hands there is one constant.
The democratic nations where money is less important in the political process due to laws governing limitations and sources ... have laws and policies that favor a greater portion of the population.
Examples of said laws: easy and inexpensive access to education and health care, and greater consumer protection laws...