freeman2 wrote:Biden's statement can be squared with Carneys because Biden's "we" did not include lower-level State Department employees

Maybe. We don't have all the facts yet.

However, Benghazi, one of the most dangerous places we have an embassy/consulate and there is almost no protection (the safehouse didn't meet standards, etc.)? If nothing else, it doesn't speak well of "competency." Furthermore, should not some person who actually made the call get sacked?

Why so many different stories? Why not just say--from the beginning--"We'll have nothing to say until we've done at least a cursory investigation?"

There are many questions and it's going to take some time to sort out. If it turns out Biden was lying, he will have done serious damage to the ticket--if the truth comes out before the election.

danivon wrote:One key factor is really where the floating voters are - and you are only a sample of one but it would be interesting to see your own opinion of the debate itself, rather than your opinion of what someone else's opinion is.

I don't like either Veep candidate and didn't expect very much from them in the debate but was mildly surprised by their fluency and facility with data (even if the factuality of it was often questionable). I have always considered Biden a jerk but surprisingly felt some degree of sympathy with him as he reacted to Ryan with scorn/disbelief/laughter. It wasn't a smart move on his part, but I sympathized with his frustration. I also sympathized with him when he (two or three times) looked directly into the camera and said something like, "Folks, go with your gut instinct here - Republicans have always opposed Medicare - we're more dedicated to preserving it..." or some such appeal to common sense. But I'm not suggesting that Biden was, overall, more truthful than Ryan. He did, however, come across to me as slightly more authentic than Ryan (meaning more willing to reveal his true emotions). Ryan dodged more answers.

Ryan seems like a very bright guy, but he was born when I was in High School. I'd like to have seen him mature in Congress and maybe even serve in a cabinet position before becoming a hearttbeat away from the Presidency. (Of course, Obama was only four years older when he ran for Prez!) For his sake I sorta' hope Romney loses - Ryan will be bored out of his mind as veep.

I'm not good enough to fact-check everything that's said while the debate is going on, and have only read one or two such articles this morning. The only thing that sticks out for me was Ryan twice (or was it three times) drawing a distinction on Syria by saying that the Obama Admin. had called Assad a "reformer". [He had no other way to make Romney seem even potentially more competent on Syria.] That did not ring true to me and my suspicions were confirmed this morning when I read an AP fact-check article that said:

Neither Obama nor anyone else in his administration ever considered the Syrian leader a "reformer." The oft-repeated charge stems from an interview Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton gave in March 2011 noting that "many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he's a reformer." She did not endorse that view. The comment was widely perceived to be a knock at senators, such as John Kerry of Massachusetts, who maintained cordial relations with Assad in the months leading up to his crackdown on protesters.

Unwilling to say, "We have no complaints with the Obama Admin. on Syria," Ryan trotted out this red herring - twice or more. You want to know my reaction to the debate? Had he done it just once... no big deal. When he tried to hammer it home he got me annoyed.

As an analyst, I'd say it was roughly a draw. I could make a lot of wild guesses about the affect it will have but it would be mostly BS. I doubt it will move the polls, which jumped way more in Romney's favor than I would have expected from the first debate. As an undecided voter, this Veep debate had almost no effect on me. If Obama were elderly and sickly, such that he might not live out a second term, the debate would make me one iota more likely to vote for him. I've never had any respect for Biden and shudder to think of him in the Oval Office. The debate tempered my disrespect an iota.

However, all the above assumes I watched the debate, which I'm assured above I did not, so I'm quite confused and assume you will be also.

Well, we got you to say something about the debate, didn't we?! You should have bet me on it, Brad!

You may have missed Biden lying about how he voted on war.

“By the way, they talk about this great recession like it fell out of the sky–like, ‘Oh my goodness, where did it come from?’” Biden said. “It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, at the same time, put a prescription drug plan on the credit card, a trillion dollar tax cut for the very wealthy.”

“I was there, I voted against them,” Biden continued. “I said, no, we can’t afford that.”

Then Sen. Biden voted for the Afghanistan resolution on Sept. 14, 2001 which authorized “the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.”

And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according to the Washington Post.

If he'll lie about voting for war, what won't he lie about?

Maybe you prefer the "Catholic" for life, Joe Biden, lying about Obamacare's impact on the RCC?

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement responding to what it called an “inaccurate statement of fact on the HHS mandate” on Biden’s part. The full text of the statement the USCCB provided to LifeNews appears below:

Last night, the following statement was made during the Vice Presidential debate regarding the decision of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to force virtually all employers to include sterilization and contraception, including drugs that may cause abortion, in the health insurance coverage they provide their employees:

“With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution—Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital—none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact.”

This is not a fact. The HHS mandate contains a narrow, four-part exemption for certain “religious employers.” That exemption was made final in February and does not extend to “Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital,” or any other religious charity that offers its services to all, regardless of the faith of those served.

With all due respect,. Mr. Vice President, you lie about war and about the impact laws have on "your" church, what won't you lie about?

Wait, I found what else he'll lie about (apologies if any are repeats--it's hard to catalog them all). Here's a couple:

8. "Just let the taxes expire like they’re supposed to on those millionaires." Biden's "millionaires" are actually households earning more than $250,000 a year, which includes many middle-class families with two earners, and small business owners in particular who report business earnings as personal income. Biden and Obama have repeatedly labeled those earning over $250,000 as "millionaires and billionaires," distorting the actual impact of their tax plan on the non-millionaires it would hit hardest, who create a vast proportion of small business jobs.

. . .

6. "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for." Biden's lie about Ryan's budget was an attempt to dodge responsibility for lax embassy security--and to cover up that the Obama administration called for new cuts to embassy security just days after the 9/11 attacks. Ryan's proposal, which called for a 19% overall decrease in non-defense discretionary spending, does not even mention embassy security--the Obama campaign merely made up that number by applying 19% across the board.
5. "No, they are not four years closer to a nuclear weapon." Biden's attempt to lie about the glaring reality of the Iranian nuclear program fell flat. Iran is indeed four years closer to a nuclear weapon, and the Obama administration--believing it knew better than its predecessors--tried to reinvent the wheel on talks with Iran, causing frustration to our allies in Europe and the Middle East. Meeting after meeting this year has failed to produce results, and the loophole-filled sanctions, while hurting Iran somewhat, are not stopping its nuclear program.

They don't even his frequent whining about time--he had more time than Ryan.

Did Ryan actually mention a car crash in an anecdote? To Joe Biden? That might explain a bit of the reaction from Joe.

I'm sure Ryan didn't do it to wind Biden up in the hope he'd have a 'moment', it was sheer coincidence that he answered a point about the car industry with a story about how Romney helped out some fellow Mormons after an accident.