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NASCAR Driver (Pro V)
 
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Post 04 Feb 2021, 5:44 am

Discuss rules for the race here.
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Post 04 Feb 2021, 10:56 am

No dice race? I'm in if it allows Challenge Passing.
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Post 04 Feb 2021, 12:14 pm

I'm not making the rules unless I'm asked to.

Entry requires the purchase of a $10 Super Bowl square to benefit my daughter's softball team. Half goes to winners, other half the team. It closes out tomorrow night.
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Post 04 Feb 2021, 7:01 pm

Challenge Passing

For all practical purposes, a Challenge Pass simply creates a temporary third lane.

Challenge passing is a two-turn process, unlike a Forced Pass which is done in a single turn. To initiate a Challenge Pass, a car must have just enough speed to move up to a row of two abreast cars and create a three abreast situation in the two lanes. The challenging car pays one skill (no die roll) to move in between two other cars. If the one skill cannot be paid, then the challenger must pay either one wear or make a Forced Pass die roll, so clearly, having a skill chip to use is the best approach. A failed Forced Pass die roll would also require the failing car to somehow pay for a 20 mph reduction in speed per the rules for a failure.

The challenging car is placed on the lane divider between the two cars who were there first. On the next turn, the challenging car is considered to be the 'outside' car (lowest priority) in determining which cars move first if identical speeds are posted.

Then on its next turn, in order to finish the attempted pass, it MUST post a higher speed than at least one of the two cars it is now abreast with, or it must move last just as if it was on the outside of three lanes.

This ‘slot’ car pass can be done in a corner if the corner has evenly lined up leading edge abreast spaces (not staggered spaces), but NOT using an arrow/line of course.

If the track is three lanes wide, then two challenge pass cars can move up into the ‘slots’, putting five cars abreast on the next turn. The inside challenge car has the move advantage over the outside challenge car if both post the same speed.

A car may repeatedly attempt a challenge pass on consecutive turns as long as it can pay the cost.

A car successfully completing a Forced Pass could immediately enter a Challenge Pass situation with the next rank of abreast cars.

Email questions to dontatum@hotmail.com
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Post 05 Feb 2021, 6:26 pm

So no dice...so...would this be without Skill, or would that be a direct use case?
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Post 05 Feb 2021, 7:46 pm

Rules are being looked at for direct use.
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Post 07 Feb 2021, 5:27 pm

Hi All,

I have put together the following as a possible starting point to remove dice from the game. This is for discussion only, and will need refining.

Additions to the CFR Rules to Eliminate Dice – First Draft

Preface:

Before I start into what my suggestions are, I thought I should preface this with where I am coming from and what my goals here are.
These are only suggestions. They may be garbage suggestions at that. After all I am a rookie at CFR, even if I played lots of Speed Circuit in the past. I also know from previous game design endeavors that few if any rules survive the first draft intact. Many won’t get used at all. This draft is a way to generate possible approaches so we can make the game more interesting by eliminating all random elements other than the players. And, when writing rules, or anything else for that matter, words can sometimes mean different things to different people. I will try to avoid this and be clear but keep your eyes out for this.

I think we also want to maintain the tension of the game. In current rules this has been partially generated by dice and the will they make the roll or not. By giving players more options for use of skill this increases the uncertainty, but also leaves that uncertainty in the hands of other players. A player can still get lucky, or unlucky, but through the interaction on the track, not the roll of the dice.
One thing I have not kept is crashes. The problem is that so far I haven’t come up with a way to do it that doesn’t involve the other drivers intentionally forcing a crash. This changes the flavor of the game in a somewhat nasty way which I personally don’t like. (And judging from the comments I see when someone does crash, most of the other players don’t like it either. But then this also gets away from the realism of auto racing which most certainly includes crashes. If someone has a suggestion as to how this can be done in a non-nasty way, please speak up.

I defer to the other more experienced hands about how much skill and/or wear each action should cost. I am only going into my third race here, so my suggestions in this respect are likely off. Comments are welcome here.

To stop going into too much editing of the current rules, I am mostly just going to replace certain types of rolls with an expenditure of skill and/or wear points. I will also add some things to put more chance back into the race.

Conceptually, I see wear as the overall durability of the car itself. While skill is the ability of the driver that declines with fatigue as the race progresses.

Rules Additions – Roll replacement:
All expenditures of wear/skill automatically result in success. The three skill chip is no longer used. It is now just three separate chips

Exceeding Acceleration, Deceleration or Top Speed by 20:
2 Skill each. Skill may only be spent once on each item in any given turn. Exceeding Deceleration by more than 20 costs one wear for each 20 mph increment. Exceeding deceleration by more than 80 results in spending the wear and the 2 Skill and spinning.

Exceed Start Speed by 20:
3 Skill.

Chance in a Corner:
20 over: One wear or 2 skill
40 over: One wear and 2 skill or two wear
60 over: Two wear and 3 skill.

Forced Passing (Any):
3 Skill.

Late Brake:
One wear or 2 Skill

Excessive Skill Spending Penalty:
For all five sections above, conducting one of them is at the stated cost. For each additional one done in a single turn, increase the total skill cost for the turn by one. For example, if you over accelerate and exceed top end, that costs a total of 5 skill. If you over accelerate, exceed the posted speed in a corner by 60, and force pass, the total skill cost is 10 for that turn. (2 for the over acceleration, 3 for exceeding the posted speed in the corner by 60, 3 for the forced pass, and 2 for the two additional use of skill.)

Rules Additions: New Rules
Making the changes above increases the power of the cars somewhat in that the game essentially becomes one of budget management with little the other players can do to impact each other. I suggest the following rules to increase the interaction between players:

Blocking:
In any corner a player may spend up to 2 skill maneuvering their car to block the players behind them. Skill spent this way is accumulated in the corner for the turn as cars spend skill in this way. Cars that are spending wear and/or skill in the corner, and/or are following the line must spend one additional skill point dodging the machinations of the car(s) in front for each two skill points accumulated in the corner when they enter it to a maximum of two additional skill. Cars not exceeding the posted limits or following a line do not incur this cost. If a car does not have enough skill to cover this cost, it spins.

Challenging:
See rules posted by Don Tatum

Accumulated Wear and Fatigue:
By the final lap of the race cars are on their last legs and drivers are at their limits. To simulate this, increase all skill costs except Excessive Skill Spending Penalties by one for the final lap of the race.

Wear for Skill:
At any time, a player can trade one wear chip for two Skill Chips

Additional Discussion Points:
1. Given the increased uses of skill points, do we want to alter the number of skill points received when setting up cars?

2. Were any actions that normally include rolling dice missed? (Ties on the starting grid excepted.)

3. There are still two ways to spin. Exceeding deceleration by 80 or more and not having enough skill to pay a blocking cost. Do we want to eliminate these?

4. There was a suggestion that repeated use of skill for the same thing over multiple turns should incur a penalty. I didn’t put this in replacing it instead with the last lap and excessive use in a turn rules. Should we take this accumulated route instead?

I think that is it, but I have likely missed some things. Discussion, additions and changes welcome.
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Post 08 Feb 2021, 10:34 am

Frankly, you have too many rules here to test in a single race. I would delete the rules for excess use of skill, accumulated wear and fatigue, and for blocking. Especially blocking.
The skill cost for making a corner roll should be at least 5, and 4 for a forced pass.
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Post 08 Feb 2021, 4:09 pm

I gotta agree with Don, There really isn't a need for the extra wrinkles in your plans on top of the No Dice Rules. its just adding extra variables to stuff (on top of to me the Excess Skill and Accumulated Wear and Tear isn't needed when Skill as is is limited by qualifying costs and constant usage.)

Outside of that

1) You left out Crash Avoidance, but being that is an event that will not occur in this system, it's not needed.

2)I don't see why there should be a difference between burning Wear in place of skill or pushing into chance range when it comes to cornering. It should all be the same cost, and as Don pointed out it should be 5 as that would follow the same cost pattern(ie safe roll of 11).

3) I don't see how this increases skill point usage truth. As is this actually reduces use, as drivers can't attempt to 1 Skill the safer tests. This and qualifying costs is why I don't see a need for excess penalties OR changes in # skill points building.

4)I'd leave the 80 MPH spin. It should be there in the case the situation comes up.

5)On Force Passing, I think the Blocking Aspect could be done by having 2 skill spent by the blocker to force the Passer to spend 2 additional skill or fail the pass.

6)Excessive Decel and Late Braking should still be the same pool. So 20,40,60 being 1Wor2S, 2Wor1W&2S, and 2W&2S, spinning if such is not available and having usage from Excessive Decel limiting Late Breaking.
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Post 09 Feb 2021, 4:37 pm

It appears there is little appetite for complexity so here's a simple system that could work.

Braking: 2 skill for -20, once per turn max.
Engine: 2 skill for +20, once per turn max.
Forced pass: 3 skill or 2 wear
Challenge pass: 1 skill or 1 wear
Start push: 3 skill
Chance: 4 skill, once per corner max

If insufficient skill and wear are unavailable for braking, the car will spin.
If insufficient skill and wear are unavailable for cornering, the car will crash.

Personally, I think a challenge pass should be 2 skill but I'm sticking with Don's rules.
I did not include blocking as an option.
Speaking of blocking, why can't one block a challenge pass, Don?

Thoughts on tracks? Should I constrain your choices? Pick a handful, and let you vote?
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Post 10 Feb 2021, 5:51 pm

Still think Chance should be 5 if we are following the "11 is safe" pattern.

For cornering, I would say have it be an "Off Track" Crash, to avoid the need of Crash Avoidance.

Track I'd say a vote, possibly 1 track from each "Color" that you might think is suitable, and perhaps has opportunities to use skill.

I kinda like the FP setup, though I think there still should be a blocking option in committing skill for skill.
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Post 11 Feb 2021, 4:07 pm

Thanks for the comments.

I will put up a revised set incorporating the comments in the next few days. What I am seeing is:

1. Higher costs for corners.
2. Remove the interaction as "Rules too far."
3. A few holes to plug

The idea of the interaction rules section was basically to push the costs up but through the action of other drivers rather than a fixed cost. No problem not using these.
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Post 15 Feb 2021, 12:19 am

Thanks for everyone’s input. Here is the second draft below, plus some points for discussion.

Discussion Points:

1. Can someone block a challenge pass?

2. Are we content with the revised costs?

3. For a Challenge Pass, one skill or two?

4. Under the exceed top end or acceleration, right now you can do both at a total cost of 4 skill. Should this be increased to a total cost of 5 skill? Thoughts?

5. I have left the trade in of one wear for two skill, but not the other way around. Thoughts?

6. I have taken out the excessive use of skill section to simplify. Let me know if I should put it back in.

Additions to the CFR Rules to Eliminate Dice – Draft Two

Rules Additions – Roll replacement:
All expenditures of wear/skill automatically result in success. The three skill chip is no longer used. It is now just three separate chips.

Exceeding Acceleration or Top Speed by 20:
2 Skill each. Skill may only be spent once on each item in any given turn.

Exceed Start Speed by 20:
3 Skill.

Chance in a Corner:
20 over: One wear or 5 skill
40 over: One wear and 5 skill, or two wear
60 over: Two wear and 5 skill.
80 over: Off track.
If insufficient skill and/or wear are available for cornering, the car will crash. Other cars do not need to avoid the crash.

Forced Passing (Any):
4 skill. A blocking car can opt to spend 2 skill to increase the cost to the passing car by a further 2 skill or fail the pass.

Late Brake/Excessive Deceleration:
20 decel: One wear or 2 skill
40 decel: One wear and 2 skill, or two wear
60 decel: Two wear and 2 skill.
if insufficient skill and/or wear are available for braking, the car will spin.

Rules Additions: New Rules

Wear for Skill:
At any time, a player can trade one wear chip for two Skill Chips.

Challenge Passing:
As posted by Don Tatum (With dice rolls edited out.)
For all practical purposes, a Challenge Pass simply creates a temporary third lane.

Challenge passing is a two-turn process, unlike a Forced Pass which is done in a single turn. To initiate a Challenge Pass, a car must have just enough speed to move up to a row of two abreast cars and create a three abreast situation in the two lanes. The challenging car pays one skill (no die roll) to move in between two other cars. If the one skill cannot be paid, then the challenger must pay one wear.

The challenging car is placed on the lane divider between the two cars who were there first. On the next turn, the challenging car is considered to be the 'outside' car (lowest priority) in determining which cars move first if identical speeds are posted.

Then on its next turn, in order to finish the attempted pass, it MUST post a higher speed than at least one of the two cars it is now abreast with, or it must move last just as if it was on the outside of three lanes.

This ‘slot’ car pass can be done in a corner if the corner has evenly lined up leading edge abreast spaces (not staggered spaces), but NOT using an arrow/line of course.

If the track is three lanes wide, then two challenge pass cars can move up into the ‘slots’, putting five cars abreast on the next turn. The inside challenge car has the move advantage over the outside challenge car if both post the same speed.

A car may repeatedly attempt a challenge pass on consecutive turns as long as it can pay the cost.

A car successfully completing a Forced Pass could immediately enter a Challenge Pass situation with the next rank of abreast cars.
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Post 15 Feb 2021, 4:53 pm

1. In the variant we used, there isn't an ability and being that the driver is basically in a phantom third or fourth lane, don't see a need.

2. As before if with blocking, a "11 is safe" setup would be 3 skill for a base force pass. the 4 skill mention was set with the idea of no blocking ability.

3. I'm fine with 1 skill here.

4. Ehh...as with stack stuff, I think it's already costly as is in being you are forced to spend full skill, and if you are qualifying such resources are limited anyway, so I don't see the need for increased cost.

5. I will leave that up to others, but no should the rule be in there, it shouldn't go in reverse.
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Post 16 Feb 2021, 11:41 am

Challenge Passing Remarks:
1. The goal (well, my goal at least), is to use Challenge Passing to make it easier to pass high bid putt-putt cars that just poke around the track preventing other cars from moving, so Challenge Passing is supposed to be 'easy'.
2. Having said that, that is why the cost is only one skill, not two, or three or a tough die roll. The easy threat of Challenge Passing (one skill cost) puts continual pressure on the leaders to either go faster or get passed (almost as if it were a... race). Challenge Passing has been tested with a 'no cost' option.
3. Same reasons apply for their not being a blocking option on a forced pass, you can' stop it. If you have spent all your wear on a big pole bid you cannot just sit there and block other cars. Our races are really too short and too often constricted by movement/corner rules to allow realistic passing, so Challenge Passing is an attempt to actually bring some driving realism back into CFR races. You can block a Forced Pass, but not a slow-moving Challenge Pass. The only way to block a Challenge Pass is to just go faster!
4. Personally, I want more driving decisions and more realistic movement of our cars; too often a narrow track creates these slow moving huge packs of cars. How many races have I seen Chris Brandt start the last lap with 10 more wear than everyone else? But then he can't get through the traffic.
5. Challenge Passing, I think, will often produce more exciting finishes.