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The Legends of the Jews

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Guapo
Dignitary

Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:10 am

I am curious about this work by Louis Ginzberg. Is anyone familiar with it? I am particularly interested in opinions of our Jewish community here, as well as anyone that may have any other insight into this work, whether professionally or by personal inquiry.

Generally speaking, what is your perspective on this work? Is it complete fabrication and myth? Is there value to it? In answering, I'm curious as to your personal beliefs on Abraham, ancient Hebrews, and extra-biblical resources.

I find a lot of these types of work to be fascinating.

Also, does anyone know where these stories originate? I was watching a documentary on the ancient Israelites where one of the Rabbis quoted from this--or its source--regarding Abram's destruction of Terah's idols. If this is the source, I would assume that this work is regarded fairly well among at least some Jewish sects. Any elucidation is helpful.

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Jaundiced Jaffe
Ambassador

Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:11 am

I only had a few minutes, but I figured that I would take a quick look. It is certainly different than how I learned it in Hebrew school. At first I thought this was a hoax or some pseudo-Judaism. But I can see that it is legit. There's a lot I don't know ...

In general, I believe that Jews / Israelites forged their identity as a people at about 1100 BCE and the religion solidified (was written down) at around 650 BCE. I believe that the Abraham story and that the vast majority of the Exodus is myth.

Does that help? I'll have to take a more detailed look ...

JJ

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Guapo
Dignitary

Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:24 am

Jaundiced Jaffe wrote:

Thanks for the reply!

Well I know that's one general perspective. Different sects have different beliefs on extra-biblical works, right? I guess I'm mostly interested in someone who might be more religious than you, but any perspective/insight helps!

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Dag Hammarsjkold
Emissary

Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:40 pm

A good portion of the Jewish narrative was written down to be preserved in or around 587 bc as a result of the Babylonian Exile. This narrative existed long before that time of course but was typically passed down and memorized from one generation to the next prior to 587 (generally speaking). Those responsible for writing the narrative down often allowed for conflicting versions of stories to exist side by side so as to preseve the best of both traditions (i.e. Chapter 2 of Genesis is generally accepted to be much older than Chapter 1).

As far as where the narrative(s) originate I am assuming you mean in written form? If so, I'd stick with Babylon. If not, then the narrative(s) can trace their origins to Ur, Egypt, Assyria, modern day Lebanon, Sinai Peninsula etc.

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ozzie the blade
Adjutant

Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:07 pm

From a non relgious point of veiw, but from someone that has dedicated alot of their time to learning about ancient history. The problem with reading books, scriptures, scrolls ect ect that were compiled thousands of years ago. Is that they tend to be dramatized quite alot. For example regarding the biblical writings on the Tower of Babel. The bible says that the tower reached into the skies through the clouds and that man kind was striving to build the temple high enough to reach the heavens. The tower of babel is beleived by historians today to have existed somewhere in Babylon, and the Babylonians were well know for building massive Ziggurats/temples. So what was beleived to be the tower of babel was possibally just an extremely large Ziggurat which was described as a tower reaching into the sky upto the heavens. There are also writings in the bible about several battles between the likes of the Hebrews and Phillistines, David and Goliath ect ect. The Phillistines are described as having more troops then grains of sand on the beach, clearly an exaggeration given that the Phillistian kingdom probabally at most at the height of it's power had a population of 1 million people. I'm in no way trying to say that the 'Legend of the Jews' is false, or that the bible is a pile of exaggerated nonesense. All I'm trying to say is that unless we were personally there and bore witness to what happened. All these books and historical references we have telling us this and that should be taken with a grain of salt as although they do tend to tell us some of the truth, it's generally an exaggerated truth as a means to glorify and event or ruler or kingdom much more then what they really were.

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Dag Hammarsjkold
Emissary

Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:50 pm

Ozzie,

Something can be true and not factual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Sure there are dozens of embellishments in the Hebrew scriptures but that doesn't mean the stories are to be taken literally or that they are any less true.

I believe that a majority of the stories are not 100% factual but may be based on some fact(s). At the same time, the truth value of these stories can be insightfully and powerfully true.

Take for instance, Babel.

I suspect there may have been a tower of some sort in the fertile crescent that inspired the Babel story. And I fully agree with you that the story has been embellished and therefore is not 100% factual as written, however, the story is still a relevant reminder of the world's situation today.

Who can deny that within the human family, nations are alienated from one another? Have a look at today's news or any days' news for that matter. We know this to be true.

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ozzie the blade
Adjutant

Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:16 pm

Dag your right. The fact that it isn't 100% factual doesn't mean that it never happened or isn't true. As far as the human family goes and nations alienating one another. All throughout history the strong have taken what they wanted and the weak have suffered what they must, and guess what. The same thing happens today as it always has. One thing that history teaches us is that we wretched things known as mankind are destined to repeat ourselves over and over and over again. Nothing personal to anyone here at redscape with religious beleifs, but I for one would rather see the world taught the valuable lesson of History rather then that of the Holy Scriptures. Then we might be able to do something about the horrible cycle of history repeating itself time and time again, and maybe just one day we'd have a half decent world to live in were we could discuss the teachings and lessons of the Holy Scriptures without fear of war or persecution by your neighbours because your a different race, or you have different religious beleifs.

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Dag Hammarsjkold
Emissary

Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:04 pm

In its context, the tower of Babel is one story of many recounting the ways in which the human family became alienated from God (eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil), ourselves (awareness of our nakedness), nature (banishment from the garden), each other (Cain & Abel) and finally other peoples (tower of Babel). This process of alienation culminates in the destruction of everything (the flood). And yet still there is hope. Our anthropormorphic God (described as such so that even a child can understand) desires renewal.

Not only are the stories etiological in nature but they point to the larger reality of what happens when we turn away from God (western notion) and/or our original innocence (eastern notion) as well as, what happens when we seek God/original innocense.

I think the stories are inspired for sure and instructive sign posts for those who look at history as a process of becoming. Speaking of which, have you ever looked at a Jesuit writer by the name of Fr. Teillard de Chardin? Few others have succeeded in making meaningful connections between history and religious truth claims as he has.

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ozzie the blade
Adjutant

Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:01 am

No I can't say I have heard of that particular person, I'll look them up. But history and religion are quite interesting. I have a mother that was at a certain point in her life quite religious and she did undergo numerous bible study groups during her time. I know through conversation with her that there is mention of numerous historical figures in the bible such as Alexander the Great, Gaius Julius Caeser ect ect. Also I was once told by IIRC my grade 10 history teacher that there was a very ancient Greek tribe that existed around the time of the Dorian migrations and Minoan civilization. This particular tribe, unlike all the others beleived that there was one god only and that man was created in his image. Sadly that particular tribe was wiped from the face of the earth during that chaotic period of Greek history so they never got to flourish into major civilization and leave a lasting imprint on history. I think that was a case of the strong took what they wanted and the weak suffered what they must.

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