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blaubohne
Dignitary
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 Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:48 pm   |
When I was new at Redscape (back in 2002) there was a game played of a variant. I don't remember the name but the idea was that each power could either erase a border on the map or draw a new border each turn.
I.e. Austria orders S01, Tri-Ven, Vie-Gal, Bud-Ser erase border Alb/Gre. The fleet from Tri can then move straight to "Larger Greece" in the Fall"
Or France orders Par-Bur, splitting Ruhr into "Upper Ruhr" bordering Bur-Bel-Hol-Kie and Lower Ruhr bordering Bur-Kie-Mun forcing Germanys A Ruh to decide whether to defend Mun or have a chance to influence Bel-Hol.
A province could not contain 2 sc, and if you were standing in an area that were split you would retreat into one of the areas in the retreat phase. If you divided a sc area you could chose where the sc went.
I would really enjoy playing this, there are a few more bugs to iron out I think. Unfortunately I suck big-time at all kind of graphics so I won't GM, but if anyone else would I'd be eternally grateful (and probably be eliminated in 1903 just because)
Thoughts?
/Vidar
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
Magister Equitum
Ambassador
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Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 pm  |
The ability to redraw the map as players go along sounds like a really interesting ideal. It could factor in to some treaties and such in the game. Are there any established rules regarding which territories can be divided and how the territories can be re-drawn?
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| posts: 1925 | location: Canada | joined: 22 Mar 2007 |
blaubohne
Dignitary
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Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:28 am |
As far as I remember, any territory could be split. To completely redraw you would need first a split and then a removal of another border (or vice versa). I.e. S01 split BAR in east BAR (touching only StP) and west BAR. IN F01 combine west BAR with NWG and suddenly you have a one-step convoy Stp-Edi..
Obviously you couödn't combine land and water territories. YOu would also need to consider whether supply sc:s can be moved. I.e. S01 combine Vie and Gal into one territory. F01 split along the old border but sc sits in the Galician part. I think that should be allowed, but you could certainly argue the case that sc:s need to keep their geographic place. But then you could draw U-shapes around the city of Vienna if you really wanted to move the sc anyways. And that would clog the drawings I think. OTOH it could lead to kidnappings of sc:s. S01 combine Ven-Tyr-Boh-Gal-Ukr into one territory (needs four cooperating powers). Then F01 return the Ukr-Gal border and put the sc in Ukr...
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
Snake IV
Emissary
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Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:20 am   |
One of the craziest ideas I've heard for a long time. Sounds like fun! I should warn against variants with "democracy", where every nations is entitled to one action of a specific kind, no matter the nation's size (like the redraw here). It is much easier to halt a front runner if four nations with 10 SC is more powerful than a lone power of 15 SC. Redraw could instead be correlated to SC holdings.
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| posts: 249 | location: On the handle of a dagger. | joined: 23 Jun 2007 |
blaubohne
Dignitary
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Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:21 am |
Good point about the democracy problem. Perhaps something like. Each power gets sc/3 draw attemps per year. Rounded up.
So 1-3 sc: 1 attempt
4-6 2 attempts.
7-9 3 attempts.
10-12 4 attempts
13-15 5 attempts.
Your four powers at 10 would then get at best 6 attempts (assuming 7-1-1-1) vs the 5 attempts of a 15 sc power (who can easier coordinate).
I figure there also needs to be rules about paradoxes, what if several people want to redraw the same area. My first thought is that if two+ powers want to split the same territory, nothing happens. If two powers want to remove borders together to create a super territory go ahead. But if the resulting territory contains more than 1 sc nothing happens.
You would also need to decide on a retreat system for units in redrawn territories.
What if Bur is split into North and south Bur. German A Bel is dislodged and can retreat to North Bur. French A Bur needs to retreat due to redraw. What happens?
Possible solutions:
1. Two retreat phases. First redrawn units retreat. Then others. France could block A Bur.
2. One retreat phase. If both A Bur and A Bel retreat to North BUrgundy, they are both destroyed.
3. Combination. Orders are written simultaneously but resolved sequentially. I.e. France retreats to North Bur, when Germany retreats there he is destroyed since the area is already occupied.
Other thoughts?
/Vidar
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
Douglas E Fresh
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:14 am |
Initial reaction: I REALLY like the idea in principal and would certainly consider GMing a game, but the various issues you mention in your last post would certainly need refinement - and if possible - simplification. I haven't had a chance to think much on it yet, but what I would want to aim at is the re-drawing of borders as a single phase per game year and a rationale for it which allows for the fact that it can be used as a military tool (ie. denying a unit the possibility of retreat - therefore causing a disband). I think the rule structure should allow for frequent but not excessive border shifts. Players should be able to allow for all possibilities - if the potential shifts are too numerous, I think it would feel too chaotic.
The thought of actually PLAYING the game scares the bejeebus out of me, but I think I could probably manage the mapping of it 
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| posts: 454 | location: Kingdom of Loathing (GMT) | joined: 25 Jan 2007 |
blaubohne
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:43 am |
Rationalizing why it works on land could be that you either destroy infrastructure (divide territories slows down movement) or build stuff like railroads (combine territories). On water you could perhaps consider mine fields or something like that. For retreats I'm more partial to the combined idea. A unit holding a position shouldn't be able to be disbanded just because it's area is split.
I'll try to write a more comprehensive rule set perhaps this weekend and then put it up. If you'd GM that would be fantastic!
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
Douglas E Fresh
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:36 am |
I agree that the combination retreat system is probably best. I have found that keeping necessary communication to a minimum between players and GM is always the way forward in my limited experience (time zones and so forth play too much havoc - esp. if you are trying to run a fast-paced game) So units forced to retreat due to redrawn borders gain precedence over those forced to do so due to being dislodged (or 'displodged' as my keyboard keeps insisting is the correct term :/)
I'll have a look at some ideas about how best to cope with the whole redraw thing graphically and post it when I've had a tinker.
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| posts: 454 | location: Kingdom of Loathing (GMT) | joined: 25 Jan 2007 |
Douglas E Fresh
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:18 am |
Couple of questions:
Can players attempt to alter the borders of ANY territory on the map? or are there conditions (adjacent unit to the province etc.)
Is there a limit to the amount of times a province can have a border added within it? (this is purely for legibility - I'm not sure how it would affect game play )
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| posts: 454 | location: Kingdom of Loathing (GMT) | joined: 25 Jan 2007 |
blaubohne
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:12 am |
1. Rationality suggest some kind of adjacency but to keep it simple I'd suggest any territory is fair game. Both erasing borders and drawing borders could be rationalized as destroying infrastructure (erasing borders destroys fortifications etc making it easier for troops to pass), both that could be done by saboteur teams.
I think a limit would be more complicated to enforce than the drawing part. If the map gets too small to draw you could just describe it in text perhaps.
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
Douglas E Fresh
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:36 am |
There follows a test run of Spring 1901 including orders concerning shifting borders!
EDIT: OOPS! My first GM error - I accidentally combined Tri and Alb instead of the ordered Alb and Gre! - anyway hopefully you get the idea
DOUBLE EDIT: Fixed my previous error.
AUSTRIA
A Vie - Gal FAILS 1 v 1
A Bud - Ser SUCCEEDS
F Tri - Ven FAILS 1 v 1
COMBINE Alb / Gre SUCCEEDS
ENGLAND
F Lon - Nth SUCCEEDS
F Edi - Nwg SUCCEEDS
A Lvp - Yor SUCCEEDS
COMBINE Nwg / Bar SUCCEEDS
FRANCE
F Bre - Eng SUCCEEDS
A Par - Pic SUCCEEDS
A Mar - Spa SUCCEEDS
COMBINE Eng/Iri SUCCEEDS
GERMANY
F Kie - Den SUCCEEDS
A Ber - Kie SUCCEEDS
A Mun HOLD SUCCEEDS
DIVIDE Bur (Switzerland/Pic) SUCCEEDS
ITALY
A Ven - Tri FAILS 1 v 1
A Rom - Apu SUCCEEDS
F Nap - Ion SUCCEEDS
COMBINE Ion/Eas SUCCEEDS
RUSSIA
F Stp(sc) - Bot SUCCEEDS
A Mos - StP SUCCEEDS
A War - Gal FAILS 1 v 1
F Sev - Rum SUCCEEDS
DIVIDE Bla (Rum - Arm) SUCCEEDS
TURKEY
A Con - Bul SUCCEEDS
A Smy - Con SUCCEEDS
F Ank HOLD SUCCEEDS
DIVIDE Bul (Con - Con = SC in Eastern province) SUCCEEDS
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| posts: 454 | location: Kingdom of Loathing (GMT) | joined: 25 Jan 2007 |
Douglas E Fresh
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:40 am |
....and now this Spring 1901 (b) Map shows the movement results for Spring 1901 and the new borders.
The only unit to find themselves in a split province is Turkey - who, having ordered the division of Bulgaria, will no doubt have thought to include conditional instruction to the GM to place his unit in the portion of Bul he preferred - in this case, we have a Sultan who apparently has no interest in Greece
As in Blaubones' initial example: Austria now has two units threatening Greece without having left Trieste, and the Italian Fleet due to the combination of the Ionian and Eastern Med now also threatens Smyrna as well!
England can certainly be said to control the North Seas, but only as far as the mighty Channel from which the treacherous French Fleet now threatens both Lon and Lvp.
The Sultan cradles his newly occupied Bulgarian SC and allows passage for another supported army to pass by into the Balkans, and along with Russias' mine laying expedition in the Black Sea, adds an early warning system to his holdings
Germany has also acted with security in mind, perhaps indicating a desire for friendship (or perhaps extreme revulsion) with France - by creating an additional wall of guns on the Maginot line.
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| posts: 454 | location: Kingdom of Loathing (GMT) | joined: 25 Jan 2007 |
Douglas E Fresh
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 am |
If there is sufficient interest to playtest this variant, I'd certainly be interested in GMing it. I await further refinement of the rules from Blaubone. The maps above are created in Adobe Illustrator which makes movement of units and changing borders very easy, although obviously more time consuming than a regular game map.
Altering borders (laying mines, building railroads, sabotaging bridges etc.) could certainly be included in both Spring and Fall, although I'd probably prefer to allow it only in one of the respective movement phases for the first run. If the opinion is that both should be allowed - so be it
Any comments on the design so far would be appreciated - my only issue - as mentioned in a previous post - would be the legibility of a province with so many divisions it becomes unreadable on the main map. I do not think that a text explanation would satisfy, therefore it would probably require additional inset maps of the more complicated regions to be included - This would take much more time and contributes to my preference for only one set of 'border orders' allowed per game year.
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| posts: 454 | location: Kingdom of Loathing (GMT) | joined: 25 Jan 2007 |
blaubohne
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:26 pm |
"Borderline Diplomacy" First draft at rules
Italicized rules are for the advanced version 
1. All rules of Diplomacy apply as normal - unless modified below.
2. Special Orders
2.a. All countries are allowed to submit a number of special orders each year.
2.a.1. Each power gets to submit 1 special order in 1901. In every year thereafter each power gets to submit n/3 special orders per year, where n is the number of supply centers it controlled at the end of the previous year. Fractions are rounded up.
2.a.2. Special orders may not be saved to later years.
2.b. A special order can be used either to "draw" or "erase".
2.b.1 If a power has an even number of special order half must be "draw" half must be erase".
2.b.2 If a power has an odd number of special orders the number of "draw" orders must be either one more or one fewer than that power's "erase" orders.
2.c. A "draw" order draws a line on the map, from one point on a border (between 2 area or between 1 area and map edge), to another point on a different border. The line may not cross any borders. This will result in one area being split into two. If the area contains a supply center the player submitting the order decides which new area contains the supply center.
Example:
Draw orders are submitted in the form "Draw Mar-Bur-Bel" will split the territory of Bur into two, one touching Mar-Gas-Par-Pic-Bel and one touching Mar-Swi-Mun-Ruh-Bel
2.d. An erase order erases the border between 2 areas. This will result in one combined province. An erase order can not be used to combine a land and water area. An erase order can not be used to combine two suppy center areas or two areas both containing units. Erase orders are submitted like "Erase Pic-Bur" will erase the border between Pic and Bur.
2.e. Special orders are submitted together with spring orders.
3. Resolving a turn including special orders
3.a. A movement turn where one or more power has submitted special order(s) is resolved as follows.
3.a.1.First all normal orders are resolved.
3.a.2.Second all draw orders are resolved simultaneously. If two or more submitted draw orders draw lines through the same area, the orders are disregarded without effect unless all draw orders for that area are identical.
3.a.3. Third all erase orders are resolved simultaneously. If an erase order erases a border that have been split by a draw order, the erase order is disregarded. If two or more erase orders applied together could result in an area containing more than one supply center, or more than one unit the orders are disregarded without effect.
Example. A Par and A Bur. orders of draw Pic-Par-Gas and Erase Par-Bur. Draw order would succeed. Erase order would not succeed since A Par could retreat to the eastern part of new Par and then A Par and A Bur would share the new
province.
Example 2. Orders of draw Pic-Par-Gas and erase Par-Bur. No units. Draw order succeeds, Erase order succeeds.
Example 3. Orders of draw Pic-Par-Gas and erase Par-Pic. No units. Draw order succeeds, erase order fails, because the new line would end in the middle of an area.
3.b. Retreats. If an area containing a unit is split into two or more areas, the unit must retreat into one of the newly created areas. The retreat is submitted together with any normal retreats.
3.b.1. A fleet may not retreat into a landlocked area.
3.b.2. Retreats due to draw orders are resolved before normal retreats. This means that a unit performing a normal retreat may find its target area already occupied. In that case the normally retreating unit is destroyed.
4. Special areas
4.a. No draw order may split Switzerland. No erase order may erase a border between Switzerland and another area.
4.b. Denmark and Constantinople contain waterways, allowing a fleet entering on on side to exit on the other. If Con or Den are split with a draw action that does not cross the waterway the player needs to specify whether which one of the new areas contain the waterway. Example: DRAW BLA-CON-AEG creates two areas, of which only one can contain the waterway. OTOH DRAW Bul-Con-Ank will split Con into two territories both containing the waterway.
4.c Swedens coastline is continuous across the danish border. If Sweden is split, the border is still continuous, unless of course the split happens just there.
4.d. If a draw order needs a coast specification to be unambigous, an order without coast specification is disregarded. (The only example at game start would be DRAW Por-MAO-Spa which need a north or south coast to be valid, but as the map changes other ones are likely to pop up)
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
blaubohne
Dignitary
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Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:37 pm |
The map and style look great!
If someone could read through the rules and see if I have forgotten anything or complicated something too much. I've included a few rules that can be modified depending on how much work it turns out to be for the GM.
Thoughts?
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| posts: 391 | location: Nyköping, Sweden | joined: 17 Oct 2002 |
