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Standard Maps

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McBeth
Emissary

Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:26 am

If I have to read one more technical document, academic paper, or patent where they used JPEGs for their line drawings and graphs, I will scream.

You want a photograph to fit in a small amount of space, you don't care if there are changes from the original image, and you will never do anything to the image again beyond cropping on the DCT borders, then JPEG is your man. Outside of that case, JPEG is a piss poor choice of image formats.

GIFs are patent encumbered, limited to 256 colors, and has poor interlacing support and really really bad transparency support. Luckily for us, the patents will expire soon, lots of people have broadband, so interlacing doesn't matter as much, and we don't care about transparency for maps.

PNGs are open, free, natively supported by Mac, Windows, Linux, and just about every other platform out there. It can do everything from 1-bit clear up to 64 bit images (16 per color + alpha), better compression than GIF, beautiful alpha support, great interlacing. It is the future of web images (adopted by W3M in '96).

Since it is a newer format (finalized 1995 (man, computers change slowly)), and Microsoft continues to try to foist the ultra-crappy BMP format on us, the default editors that come with Windows sometimes don't work with PNG. It has been natively supported in the OS since '98, the editors just aren't making it visible to the user.

Now, personal soap boxing now (as if all the above weren't), maps will be moving to SVG. It is a vector format, perfect for the application, and absolutely gorgeous. If you want an example, you can look at (it is big)
http://67.66.187.69/civproject/files/civmap.pdf
scalability, crispness, smallness. It has it all.

Disclaimer: I work with computer images all day for medical analysis. I also wrote the PNG code for DCDEV (dreamcast framework)

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posts: 1560 | location: Rochester, NY | joined: 03 Oct 2002

Minister X
Dignitary

Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:58 am

A word in defense of JPGs...

I hate the format as much as anyone. But it may be that I post more maps at Redscape than anyone else. I'm usually GMing 2 games, but that's almost irrelevant because once those games are over all the maps are discarded when the thread is removed. However, all the maps I upload to this variant thread are here permanently and I know I've posted more maps here than anyone.

Most Redscapers may not be aware of it, but there's a limit on how many bytes of graphics a member can upload. I've exceeded that limit once already and Chad has graciously extended me more capacity.

To avoid exceeding my limit again, and because larger files take more time to resolve on screen, I'm quite sensitive to the size of the maps I upload. When I'm ready to convert a map to its final uploading format I'll test every format available, using multiple methods and up to four different programs to do the conversion, often in complex combinations. My goal is to produce the best combination of clarity, readability, other aspects of appearance, and file size. Often, JPGs win. I'm not happy about that because, as I said, their appearance leaves much to be desired.

If I didn't care so much about file size, I'd use PNGs all the time (and maybe a GIF for the weird odd one now and then). But to me, a legible and not-too-ugly JPG at 80k is preferable to a pretty PNG at 120k.

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posts: 8248 | joined: 03 Jan 2002

McBeth
Emissary

Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:31 am

Submitted for your approval, the current CivMap from Apollo 18. Exported as both PNG and JPEG. To explain my methods, I took the map (which I always store PNG), and exported it as JPEG modifying the quality parameter so the file size matched the PNG as closely as possible. Perhaps I did something wrong, but I don't think so. I think you would agree that the PNG looks much better for the same amount of data transfered.

http://broggs.org/~mcbeth/CivMap.png
http://broggs.org/~mcbeth/CivMap.jpg

(Warning, each file is about 250k in size, and IE and Mozilla/Firefox will scale the image down for you automatically if you aren't careful Smile

Of course, with a more photo-realistic map, the results would swing differently. The only time I've seen JPEG win size/quality fights with maps like Apollo 18 is when people either purposely or foolishly play up to JPEG's strengths.

*MATH WARNING*
For those familiar with math, JPEG uses a discrete cosine transform to perform its magic, and as you see in the map, anywhere with hard edges will acquire "ringing" similar to trying to do a fourier transform on a heaviside function.
*MATH DONE*

BTW, tmmsteve, if there are some maps you really want made into standard variants, I'd be willing to do one or two, and write down what I do and post it as a howto thingie.

I just realized I'm sounding smug. Everything I have said about which format is better is an opinion based upon my experience. Your mileage will vary. Perhaps I am grumpy from squinting at academic papers with JPEG'ed graphs trying to figure out what the hell is going on Smile

Jeff

PS
One thing people might not realize is that outside of cropping on DCT boundries and a few other very minor changes, it isn't possible to edit a JPEG without undergoing another lossy compression (losing even more quality)

PPS
I've personally kept the image files on my local server to reduce the amount of traffic I impose on Redscape. Perhaps it has been the wrong decision, but I started GMing when the systems were changing over, and it was much easier for me to behave like I am Smile

posts: 1560 | location: Rochester, NY | joined: 03 Oct 2002

Doctor Fate
Ambassador

Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:53 am

Thanks MX. I'll tinker a bit and let you know.

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Minister X
Dignitary

Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:04 pm

McBeth wrote:

Almost all my maps are based on backgrounds that are photo-reproductions of maps, usually antique ones. They start out as JPGs. After clean-up and enhancement I import these into a vector program where I add borders and SCs and whatnot. I guess I am purposely playing up to JPEG's strengths.

Maps I create with simple line-drawing and colored shapes usually do export better as PNGs, but I like the photo-realistic maps I do and won't stop doing them. Any surfing through this variant forum, looking for the topics I have begun (i.e. the variants and maps I've posted) should reveal why. In any case, it's a matter of taste and I'm too old to alter mine.

But I sure do wish I could get the best of all worlds: photo-like maps that export with the clarity of PNGs and the file sizes of the most "lousy" JPGs!!

posts: 8248 | joined: 03 Jan 2002

McBeth
Emissary

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:52 pm

Well, you are looking for JPEG2k, and even further in the future, DjVu.
There is all sorts of crazy tech in there.

posts: 1560 | location: Rochester, NY | joined: 03 Oct 2002

Michael
Statesman

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:03 am

I'd be negligent if I didn't supply my own two versions (chuckle).

posts: 654 | location: Melbourne, Australia | joined: 18 Dec 2004

Michael
Statesman

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:17 am

Personally, I'd say that the SVG format is by far the best for displaying provincial border maps. Scalable Vector Graphics are based on XML technology, and do exactly what the name says they do... They scale.

Resizing the map from a 200 pixel width/height to a 2000 pixel width/height doesn't produce any loss in quality whatsoever. The format has been adopted by W3C, and is useable now in many software packages (Coral Draw for one).

Its biggest disadvantage though is that the only way of viewing them is currently through third party software, such as the Adobe SVG Viewer (an IE plug-in). Hopefully newer browsers will incorporate the format much like they did with PNF.

posts: 654 | location: Melbourne, Australia | joined: 18 Dec 2004

McBeth
Emissary

Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:53 am

That's not entirely true, the brand spanking newest version of Firefox (Deer Park Alpha 2) does SVG also.

It really is the best way to go for hand drawn maps. I can't wait until more browsers support it, because right now I have to convert the Civmaps I use for AdvCiv from SVG to PNG for viewing here

posts: 1560 | location: Rochester, NY | joined: 03 Oct 2002

Minister X
Dignitary

Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:06 am

Michael: you're the author of the GIFs that have been posted at the Dip Pouch for years? SMALL GIF Did you do any of the others posted there? They're nice.

posts: 8248 | joined: 03 Jan 2002

Michael
Statesman

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:26 pm

Just the small GIF and its larger brother. I scanned a copy of the original British board, traced the borders by hand, and then filled them out with the color. It allowed for a map that could have each province flooded with color entirely upon one click.

The idea was to produce something similar to RealPolitik. Hmm… I never did get around to that, did I (grin).

posts: 654 | location: Melbourne, Australia | joined: 18 Dec 2004

Doctor Fate
Ambassador

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:34 am

Super! I like that a lot! Have you ever thought about putting it into RP format for the lazy among us. Also, what sort of "units" do you use?

Thanks for posting that!

posts: 11314 | joined: 14 Jun 2002 | medals: 5

theshrizzz
Foreign Minister

Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:32 pm

Got this from the internet and touched it up a little bit, and used Tom's units/supply center images.

If I ever wanted to..how do I put it into RP format?

posts: 1807 | location: Berkeley, CA | joined: 06 Dec 2004 | medals: 1

Freelance
Ambassador

Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:25 am

Toms map and icons, entered into Realpolitik and saved as GIF.

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posts: 1646 | location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia | joined: 23 Nov 2000 | medals: 5

Doctor Fate
Ambassador

Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:36 am

That's great. Can you post the RP file?

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